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Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

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Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#41

Post by ekianjo »

sho wrote: post #40
ekianjo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am well aware of that. But its not even real medium format. There is no camera with digital sensor of 6x7 actual size out there. what you have instead is digital backs that adapt on older film cameras.

> There is no camera with digital sensor of 6x7 actual size Well .. true, but mostly because that is a HUGE size for a digital sensor. The only "medium" format digital I'm familiar with is the pentax 645, it is smaller than that old film and yet still 50MP (!). The tech will only improve. I wouldn't hold your breath for any sensor of the size of the old film you're talking about. There's a certain threshold above whi…

The real medium format is based on actual standard film size. 120 and 220. They are clearly defines and medium format starts from 6x6 as a square shape, and then goes beyond. Its clearly not just "bigger than 35mm", while its what Fuji wants you to believe.

as i mentioned there is a clear market for actual digital medium format using digital backs you can plug on old hasselblad or equivalent twin lenses models. So this is not fiction or something. And sensor size is not about pixels, you get a very different depth of field with medium and large format. thats is why we still use them.

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#42

Post by inferiorhuman »

sho wrote: post #28
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the GP, but I shoot with an X-Pro2 when I'm using digital, but I prefer working with film and I'm still pissed that Acros is being discontinued.

The X-Pro2 is a beautiful little camera with a great personality, and the whole X series is just so .. classy, both the hardware and the results. I have an older x100 and people used to come up and ask me about it! One of the reasons I love the series so much is that they're so unassuming, almost looking like fashion accessories because compared to other ranges they just look so good. So people don't shy away from th…

Based on my experience with an F30 ages ago I'd expect that their sensors are very competitive. Unfortunately for many remaining uses of a DSLR, the X series isn't that competitive for most of the same reasons the other mirrorless systems aren't that competitive.

The small size almost positions the X series as a modern day Leica rangefinder. It's perfect for vacation and street photography, even for more intimate things like weddings... but Nikon and Canon have the autofocus thing locked up (probably with a mountain of patents). Unfortunately if you're shooting weddings you'll want that extra low light capability of a full-frame sensor and mature phase detection AF. If you're doing studio stuff, you probably don't care too much but you would miss the ubiquitous Canikon accessories.

Me? I shoot concerts (which is probably why I don't wax nostalgic about film too much). I'd love something inconspicuous like an X series, but I'm almost always shooting at high ISO. If I'm using a manual focus lens I'd miss the instant feedback of an optical viewfinder. If I'm using an AF lens I'd miss the performance of the current crop of full frame DSLRs. In general I'd miss the selection of native lenses available to the dominant DSLR lens mounts.

If there's any worry about the longevity of Fujifilm it would be interesting to contemplate a Fuji/Sigma or Fuji/Cosina merger IMO. Sigma's got some crazy sensor technology, and Cosina's got a recent history of making some amazing lenses. Or Fuji/Ricoh/Pentax.

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#43

Post by davidgay »

paulmd wrote: post #27
Aloha wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If no one is buying it - or not enough to sustain production, its going to go away.

Kodak "rightsized" their film production a few years ago, and film sales are actually on an incline since then (both due to enthusiasts and professional cinematographers). They're actually bringing back various classic film stocks as well as introducing new ones based on modern R&D. Ilford has shed their financial legacy (and toxic waste-dump of a site) and is doing better these days too. https://www.dpreview.com/new…

> Fuji just can't get their act together, and to be honest they've never been a very well-run company.

This is a more than strange statement to make in a thread mentioning Kodak, where one of those two companies successfully managed the transition from film to digital, and the other went bankrupt.

https://leaderonomics.com/business/kodak-vs-fujifilm-success... is the first hit on "fujifilm vs kodak", but there's quite a few there with the same message...

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#44

Post by ghostcluster »

vvanders wrote: post #17
psetq wrote: post #15

Somewhat off topic, but If you're interested in the history of modern computing and not already familiar with the Xerox PARC [0] story, you should know that Xerox has a fascinating history of computer research innovation, and is often regarded as one of the real major driving forces behind the P.C. as we know it. An interesting account (as well as a great deal more about the rest of the history of modern computers) i…

Dealers of Lightning[0] is also pretty fantastic and covers PARC in good detail. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1101290.Dealers_of_Light...

Dealers of Lighting is great, and is good as an audiobook as well.

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#45

Post by sho »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #42
sho wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The X-Pro2 is a beautiful little camera with a great personality, and the whole X series is just so .. classy, both the hardware and the results. I have an older x100 and people used to come up and ask me about it! One of the reasons I love the series so much is that they're so unassuming, almost looking like fashion accessories because compared to other ranges they just look so good. So people don't shy away from th…

Based on my experience with an F30 ages ago I'd expect that their sensors are very competitive. Unfortunately for many remaining uses of a DSLR, the X series isn't that competitive for most of the same reasons the other mirrorless systems aren't that competitive. The small size almost positions the X series as a modern day Leica rangefinder. It's perfect for vacation and street photography, even for more intimate thi…

Their sensors are competitive, if not state of the art - a sentiment you can repeat about almost every other aspect of raw performance: AF, EVF quality, speed, etc. Their real appeal isn't in the specs but in the way everything hangs together in a cohesive, opinionated, attractive, omakase whole.

Despite the name ("X-Pro2") I don't think Fujifilm are actually targeting "real" pros with this range. They're not workhorse cameras and even the X-Pro makes obvious concessions to functionality in favour of aesthetics. But they are not toys! I'm having trouble thinking of who their market actually is off the top of my head. A certain kind of enthusiast. People who seriously care about both form and function. The kind of person who would never use a factory camera strap (i'm thinking Artist & Artisan). I don't know, maybe I'm projecting :P

I know exactly what you mean about high ISO (i have an a7sii) and you're right that any of the X-series would be a poor choice - that's not really their bag. It's the camera you'd take backstage, though, and that wouldn't be confiscated by security...

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#46

Post by sho »

ekianjo wrote: post #41
sho wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no camera with digital sensor of 6x7 actual size Well .. true, but mostly because that is a HUGE size for a digital sensor. The only "medium" format digital I'm familiar with is the pentax 645, it is smaller than that old film and yet still 50MP (!). The tech will only improve. I wouldn't hold your breath for any sensor of the size of the old film you're talking about. There's a certain threshold above whi…

The real medium format is based on actual standard film size. 120 and 220. They are clearly defines and medium format starts from 6x6 as a square shape, and then goes beyond. Its clearly not just "bigger than 35mm", while its what Fuji wants you to believe. as i mentioned there is a clear market for actual digital medium format using digital backs you can plug on old hasselblad or equivalent twin lenses models. So th…

That's not how depth of field works. DoF, simplistically, is governed by the usable angle of light at the back of the lens - the more obtuse, the more "DoF". Larger sensors (like your 6x7) might be useful if there are limits in sensor resolution, necessitating the sensor being placed further back so the light can shine over a larger area. But if the sensor is higher resolution (as I said the 645z is 50MP) then it can be closer and capture the same DoF. If technology improves enough then we might be able to deliver your "medium format" DoF with a 10mm*10mm sensor placed right up close to the lens. You would not be able to tell the difference.

The 645z and x1d are delivering the medium format DoF right now. Things can be improved upon, sure, but insisting on a certain sensor size is misguided. That size was necessary simply because of the limitations of film chemistry. Remove this limitation and the sensor size becomes less relevant.

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#47

Post by pjmlp »

psetq wrote: post #15

Somewhat off topic, but If you're interested in the history of modern computing and not already familiar with the Xerox PARC [0] story, you should know that Xerox has a fascinating history of computer research innovation, and is often regarded as one of the real major driving forces behind the P.C. as we know it. An interesting account (as well as a great deal more about the rest of the history of modern computers) i…

Bitsavers is stuffed with all their research documents around Lisp, Smalltalk, Mesa and Mesa/Cedar.

https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_xerox

Graphical workstations, REPL, IDE like features with edit-and-continue capabilities, memory safe systems programming with GC, interactions between GUI components on the UI,...

Many of the ideas that inspired research at ETHZ and DEC as well.

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#48

Post by petepete »

sho wrote: post #28
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the GP, but I shoot with an X-Pro2 when I'm using digital, but I prefer working with film and I'm still pissed that Acros is being discontinued.

The X-Pro2 is a beautiful little camera with a great personality, and the whole X series is just so .. classy, both the hardware and the results. I have an older x100 and people used to come up and ask me about it! One of the reasons I love the series so much is that they're so unassuming, almost looking like fashion accessories because compared to other ranges they just look so good. So people don't shy away from th…

Also, Fuji are streets ahead in the UX department. Physical controls for iso/shutter/exp comp, aperture on the lens. There's no confusion about modes and what the camera is in charge of.

If I wasn't so heavily invested in Nikon glass I'd have an X-T2.

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#49

Post by ghaff »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #42
sho wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The X-Pro2 is a beautiful little camera with a great personality, and the whole X series is just so .. classy, both the hardware and the results. I have an older x100 and people used to come up and ask me about it! One of the reasons I love the series so much is that they're so unassuming, almost looking like fashion accessories because compared to other ranges they just look so good. So people don't shy away from th…

Based on my experience with an F30 ages ago I'd expect that their sensors are very competitive. Unfortunately for many remaining uses of a DSLR, the X series isn't that competitive for most of the same reasons the other mirrorless systems aren't that competitive. The small size almost positions the X series as a modern day Leica rangefinder. It's perfect for vacation and street photography, even for more intimate thi…

I sort of agree with you. I have a full-frame Canon system and that's what I go to when I want the most capability/versatility and I don't care about size or weight.

But my Fujifilm XE-3 is what I take with me the vast majority of the time if I'm not shooting action or long tele/very wide angle. And, yes, it's in part because it feels like a rangefinder in a lot of ways. (Never had a Leica but used a Kodak Retina for many years along with various other cameras like Olympus XAs.)

Re: Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

#50

Post by ghaff »

davidgay wrote: post #43
paulmd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kodak "rightsized" their film production a few years ago, and film sales are actually on an incline since then (both due to enthusiasts and professional cinematographers). They're actually bringing back various classic film stocks as well as introducing new ones based on modern R&D. Ilford has shed their financial legacy (and toxic waste-dump of a site) and is doing better these days too. https://www.dpreview.com/new…

> Fuji just can't get their act together, and to be honest they've never been a very well-run company. This is a more than strange statement to make in a thread mentioning Kodak, where one of those two companies successfully managed the transition from film to digital, and the other went bankrupt. https://leaderonomics.com/business/kodak-vs-fujifilm-success... is the first hit on "fujifilm vs kodak", but there's quit…

Fujifilm didn't so much manage the transition from film to digital as manage the transition from film to other things that could make use of their technical capabilities in making film.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/01/how-fujif...

Not to take away from their cameras. I use them and am a fan but they're pretty much a niche.

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