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Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

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Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#41

Post by acdha »

ghouse wrote: post #12

Unregulated capitalism, perhaps. However, I don't think the US has capitalism (well-regulated or otherwise) today. Today we have a system where gains are privatized, losses are socialized, and market-participants can coerce their elected officials to tilt the market in their favor. This is not capitalism.

The end of your comment sounds exactly like the guys who defend communism arguing that it’s never really been tried. I think this is capitalism but that that recognition leads to the understanding that it comes in more and less healthy varieties. The U.S. version has oscillated over the years and we can see the results of the better and worse eras.

(This is similar to the way some people use “socialism” to mean something like the Cultural Revolution and completely ignore the existence of e.g. European and especially Scandinavian examples)

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#42

Post by tshaddox »

aggie wrote: post #28
mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

> a. that's corruption, not capitalism This is the same logic used by people who argue "That's corruption, not socialism." If everywhere there is capitalism, there is corruption, you can't simply wave it away. Edit: I originally asked "How is this argument different from 'that's corruption, not socialism'", which some seemed to interpret as a defense of socialism. I'm just pointing out the flawed logic in both argume…

> How is this any different from people who argue "That's corruption, not socialism"?

It’s not at all different. In fact, state socialism and state capitalism are extremely similar systems.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#43

Post by vertexFarm »

mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

I think that to be at all fair we should treat the side-effects of capitalism as capitalism, just as we treat the side-effects of communism as communism.

When we see that communist regimes have famines and vast imprisonments and corrupt party leaders stealing from the people, we correctly identify that as one of the realities of communism which stems from the impossibility of making communism work within the confines of human nature.

When it's the inevitable effects of capitalism, we deny it. We say, "Oh no, that's not pure capitalism, they aren't practicing real capitalism, they're corrupt." It IS an effect of capitalism in every case. Where else is this coming from? Powerful entities in capitalist societies capture regulatory bodies and political figures and force them to enact policies which are harmful to common people yet benefit their bottom line.

It's intellectually dishonest to say that all of a sudden it isn't capitalism so capitalist ideology isn't at fault. We have been driven by capitalist ideology every step of the way up to this, but the instant something bad happens then the definitions suddenly change and capitalism is insulated from harm.

Let's not be in denial and say that yes, capitalism per-se is to blame. There comes a point when capitalism is bad for free society and democracy. Does that mean that we have to enact the exact opposite? No. Let's not have a false dichotomy. We need to realize that pure capitalist ideology doesn't work due to human nature in exactly the same way that pure communist ideology doesn't work. We need a strong and effective system to suppress certain parts of the capitalist ideology or we will perish.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#44

Post by rjbwork »

misja111 wrote: post #23
gameswithgo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the absence of big government, big corporate will become defacto government even more easily.

I guess you mean in the absence of any government. Neither big government nor anarchy is good for democracy, but there is a whole range in between.

Along that logic could we say that absolute private property rights nor the complete absence of exclusive use of capital goods is good for democracy, but that there is a whole range in between?

It's not immediately obvious to me that either is true in terms of producing viable societies, but as these are the primary axes which determine how a society is going to function, it seems they ought to both be or neither be.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#45

Post by mindcrime »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #33
mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

This is a bit similar to claiming that communism is great, because all the times when it was tried and there were problems weren't real communism. If capitalism tends to inevitably lead to corruption of government and the undermining of democracy etc in the long run, then that's an interesting critique, which can't just be swatted away with "yes but the result isn't capitalism".

If capitalism tends to inevitably lead to corruption of government

That's a pretty big if.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#46

Post by hellllllllooo »

aggie wrote: post #28
mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

> a. that's corruption, not capitalism This is the same logic used by people who argue "That's corruption, not socialism." If everywhere there is capitalism, there is corruption, you can't simply wave it away. Edit: I originally asked "How is this argument different from 'that's corruption, not socialism'", which some seemed to interpret as a defense of socialism. I'm just pointing out the flawed logic in both argume…

This. People supporting capitalism alway seem to argue that any abuses of power and corruption are exceptions. The system is built on competition so without strong regulation it seems inevitable that people will take shortcuts to win.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#47

Post by mindcrime »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #29
mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

Some have argued, however, that this commingling is caused by the forces of capitalism. Once you have large profits, it makes sense to direct some of them towards altering the laws in your favor. Simultaneously, capitalism seems to encourage the kind of concentration of wealth that will always ensure some capitalists have large profits relative to the norm of society. So in many ways this commingling ends up being in…

Some have argued, however, that this commingling is caused by the forces of capitalism

True, but personally I remain unconvinced by those arguments. It gets complicated though, because a lot of people (implicitly or explicitly) equate "capitalism" and "corporations". But in reality, capitalism doesn't require corporations and corporations require the State. A capitalist economy without corporations (which break the link between actions and liability for the consequences of those actions) would very likely be a much different thing.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#48

Post by pishpash »

mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

No. You're confusing the free market economy (a mechanism) vs. capitalism (a political economical system). Competition leads inevitably to monopoly as the best and the winners prevail and entrench in political power, that's the central contradiction built into capitalism. You can't separate one from the other if you want capitalism. This is the classical Marxist critique.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#49

Post by ravenstine »

mindcrime wrote: post #4

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

It's not even just capitalism. Human behavior itself can be a threat to democracy.

Honestly, I don't know what the author is talking about when they say "free market" in the present tense. The U.S. economy and the global economy aren't even close to being a free market.

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