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Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

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Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#41

Post by Karlozkiller »

larntz wrote: post #23
nailer wrote: post #8

The other side of the case, which contains a lot of detail not mentioned here: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...

That definitely paints a different picture of the situation. > Evidence submitted to the court shows that one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 counterfeit software discs. That's quite a bit more than 25 cents per disc. Should Microsoft charge $25 for a disc and license to run windows on a refurbished, maybe not. But, I have a hard time believi…

According to 'the defendant' that value is all of the money he got from Bob Wolff over a couple of Years not only from the discs. The discs returned a lot less. Though of course that might be a lie, I wouldn't know.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#42

Post by Karlozkiller »

icebraining wrote: post #21
Karlozkiller wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft... I don't know if I would call it 'trying to make profit' when you make CDs in China, ship them to US and sell the CDs for 25 cent a piece. According to himself he made no mon…

In the emails, he writes "This will ensure a steady income for the next year to come!"

He disputes the emails claiming they are made up and tampered with insinuating his partner in selling these CDs has implicated him to get a lesser sentence.

Obviously someone in this whole mess is lying or grossly misinformed, the problem is figuring out who.

He said he had IT-experts testify in court that the emails had been tampered with, I assume one could look into that in some kind of public record over the case?

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#43

Post by tripletao »

Karlozkiller wrote: post #41
larntz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definitely paints a different picture of the situation. > Evidence submitted to the court shows that one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 counterfeit software discs. That's quite a bit more than 25 cents per disc. Should Microsoft charge $25 for a disc and license to run windows on a refurbished, maybe not. But, I have a hard time believi…

According to 'the defendant' that value is all of the money he got from Bob Wolff over a couple of Years not only from the discs. The discs returned a lot less. Though of course that might be a lie, I wouldn't know.

The purchase order says $28k for 8k disks. It would be funny if he's telling the truth, and the fake PO that he made for an unrelated reason came back to bite him here...

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#44

Post by Karlozkiller »

notahacker wrote: post #29
Karlozkiller wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft... I don't know if I would call it 'trying to make profit' when you make CDs in China, ship them to US and sell the CDs for 25 cent a piece. According to himself he made no mon…

According to emails he wrote whilst not trying to defend a court case, it was very, very important to him the disks could not be distinguished from the real thing even though he knew these were far more risky to import than unprinted CDs, and very important to get as many sales as possible. Court submissions seem to indicate he had another line in Canon CDs which he was quite happy encouraging his partner to continue…

Do you have a link to the court documents? This whole thing seems like a mess regardless of who is right. Although I'm quite sure these recovery discs do not allow you to install windows without a license.

They never did when I used such discs back in the days, and why would DELL be allowed to distribute software making such a thing possible? Of course you could argue that he has manipulated the program on the disc but as far as I know that has not been proven and he is claiming he did not.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#45

Post by mchannon »

sailingparrot wrote: post #25
mchannon wrote: post #7

So many in this case are missing the point. If Microsoft caught him violating their copyright, and it bothered Microsoft, Microsoft should have sued in civil court. That is the purpose of civil court- to penalize wrongdoing by companies. Happens all the time. But Microsoft was never going to recover anything in civil court. So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the…

> So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the US government to foot the bill of prosecuting the case. Source for that? Microsoft is clearly denying this, so who is right?: > "Microsoft did not bring this case: U.S. Customs referred the case to federal prosecutors after intercepting shipments of counterfeit software imported from China by Mr. Lundgren." and > "Customs…

Source that Microsoft lied? Gov Exhibit 17. There are probably many more.

There are about three or four lies on there, which anybody familiar with the computer recycling business can confirm.

Microsoft had no potential sales of genuine operating systems through this conduct because any license these discs would have been useful for was affixed to the computer and not included with the counterfeit discs. Hence, the loss and restitution amount were falsely stated.

As to the fanciful notion that Microsoft was somehow called in at the 11th hour, with zero involvement in the case prior to that moment, one would only need to talk to any attorney versed in criminal law to disabuse themselves of it.

Prosecutors don't bring cases they aren't relatively certain they can win- that's why they have a 93+% win rate. That means contacting the "victim" from the get-go to make sure they're willing to cooperate and testify.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#46

Post by Cthulhu_ »

tripletao wrote: post #18

His punishment seems disproportionate and stupid (like, why are we spending money to lock him up instead of fining him more?); but he clearly intended to make disks that buyers would think were factory originals, and knew that he was breaking the law. From his email: > I can look in to the missing boxes - Usually in my history - Customs just ships them to you 3 weeks later. > If they call you - play stupid and just t…

And those arguments would fit with what he actually pleaded guilty to - copying the designs of the recovery disks and making them look legitimate. They aren't arguments (but IANAJ) that claim the software is e.g. legitimate windows installations.

He was sentenced for software piracy or thereabouts, but he literally can't do that because windows is not a physical disk, but a license. He did not sell licenses. The discs, as was stated as such by expert witnesses, were worthless. The contents were freely downloaded from Microsoft itself.

Of course, there might be a clause on the website that you can't burn those images and sell them. But those can't be tied to a monetary value because the images were distributed for free.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#47

Post by m-p-3 »

notahacker wrote: post #5

15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft...

He never sold any licenses, he sold the medium and the convenience of having the installation software easily available for his customers.

The OEM license attached to the hardware is still necessary to use the medium (which AFAIK is tied to the hardware, not the user), so I do not personally see any monetary loss for Microsoft. The only way Microsoft (or Dell, etc) lost money is because they charge an absurd price of money for something that is basically a DVD coaster without any license. They only have themselves to blame.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#48

Post by Karlozkiller »

criddell wrote: post #28
Karlozkiller wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to what he says himself in an interview he was selling the CDs 25 cent a piece after paying for production in China and shipping to the US. I don't think you can get much meaningful profit from that.

It's been reported that he earned $28,000 from the transaction.

Yes, he claims that was all the money he ever got from his 'accomplice' for selling a lot of things over several years, including screws and the CDs in question. The CDs according to him were only a minor part of that sum.

Doesn't mean it's necessarily true, for obvious reasons. And one can only hope the court looked through all that as thoroughly as possible.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#49

Post by MichaelGG »

okasaki wrote: post #31
tripletao wrote: post #18

His punishment seems disproportionate and stupid (like, why are we spending money to lock him up instead of fining him more?); but he clearly intended to make disks that buyers would think were factory originals, and knew that he was breaking the law. From his email: > I can look in to the missing boxes - Usually in my history - Customs just ships them to you 3 weeks later. > If they call you - play stupid and just t…

Those seem like ideas on how to get past customs more easily, not necessarily an admission of any wrongdoing.

The rest of his emails are about pushing sales, saying he'll fix issues to make it more legit looking, but encouraging his sales guy to move the product.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#50

Post by tripletao »

Karlozkiller wrote: post #42
icebraining wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the emails, he writes "This will ensure a steady income for the next year to come!"

He disputes the emails claiming they are made up and tampered with insinuating his partner in selling these CDs has implicated him to get a lesser sentence. Obviously someone in this whole mess is lying or grossly misinformed, the problem is figuring out who. He said he had IT-experts testify in court that the emails had been tampered with, I assume one could look into that in some kind of public record over the case…

Do you have a link where he alleges the tampering? I'd be interested to learn more. I should try to find the court documents, usually available through a PACER-type thing for a nonzero but modest charge.
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