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An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

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Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#41
post #23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this mean that eating any meat, or your own body chemistry, would also cause headaches?

You would think so, but somehow the artificial stuff is different or in greater concentration. Here's how I discovered my MSG intolerance: I made a bunch of onion soup (from onion soup mix), and ate a ton of it. I then spent the next 24 hours feeling terrible, downing pepto, etc. A few weeks later I made a recipe that included onion soup mix as an ingredient. Again I felt terrible. I though, Aha, I must have an onion…

Bingo, same here.

When I was little, back in the 70's, my mom used these bouillons: Knorr and whatnot. We had no idea what is MSG, but somehow I clued in to the idea that I was feeling sick from that soup and was dreading the "headache soup".

In the late 80's, I once so ill from a cup of instant noodles that I had to go home.

Not long after that, I finally learned about MSG from a book I stumbled upon in the library (circa 1989, I think). It all clicked.

I understood mom's soup and the instant noodles incident.

I started avoiding everything with MSG and have scarcely had any apparently food-related headaches since: all the ones I've had over have been from eating out.

One particular series fell into a clear pattern. A new Chinese restaurant opened near where I work. I ate there on three separate occasions over the course of six months, around lunch time. Each time, I felt some discomfort in the abdomen toward the evening and headache/nausea the following morning lasting into the afternoon. Each time, exactly the same repetition.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#42
post #36
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because nobody has a reaction to MSG. It's ill effects are entirely fictional. It has not been proven, and will not be proven, that every single person in the world has no reaction to MSG. All I'm advocating is a little bit of doubt. The human body is complex and not every person is the same and not every biological process is completely understood. We can make statements as a whole, like that most people that thin…

I'm constantly worried about that teapot orbiting Mars that nobody can disprove. Imagine how much it must be worth! What color might it be? Endless fascination.

You think the probability that someone on the planet has a sensitivity to a certain food/molecule is about the same as there being a teapot orbiting Mars? Everything a person consumes has a vast variety of effects in different people. We're discovering new reactions all the time.

I'll tell you why I care. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that DOES have a rare and strange immune system reaction to a common food. I've seen doctor after doctor for years and no one can tell me what it is. I've tested it over and over and over and my doctors all agree with my assessment. But for some reason, I have to deal with a lot of people that tell me I'm wrong because read something on the internet about it being a fad. Why is everyone so damn certain they have complete knowledge of someone's digestive system and immune system?

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#43
post #30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think so, but somehow the artificial stuff is different or in greater concentration. Here's how I discovered my MSG intolerance: I made a bunch of onion soup (from onion soup mix), and ate a ton of it. I then spent the next 24 hours feeling terrible, downing pepto, etc. A few weeks later I made a recipe that included onion soup mix as an ingredient. Again I felt terrible. I though, Aha, I must have an onion…

Yes, and we've repeatedly researched MSG on the basis of experiences like yours. It turns out there is no evidence that people who self-report as sensitive actually are. Yes, even if they're really, really sure. Maybe you are some sort of undiscovered outlier? That may be compelling to you, but it seems unlikely to me... the research indicates you're far more likely to be among those who have misidentified a cause fo…

> we've

Who is this "we", and in what way does it involve yourself?

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#44
post #23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this mean that eating any meat, or your own body chemistry, would also cause headaches?

You would think so, but somehow the artificial stuff is different or in greater concentration. Here's how I discovered my MSG intolerance: I made a bunch of onion soup (from onion soup mix), and ate a ton of it. I then spent the next 24 hours feeling terrible, downing pepto, etc. A few weeks later I made a recipe that included onion soup mix as an ingredient. Again I felt terrible. I though, Aha, I must have an onion…

So, if you were to obtain autolyzed yeast, and eat it, you'd experience the symptoms? Basically all modern packaged food with umami flavor includes it (it's the go-to-method for adding umami to processed foods).

Personally, I'd say that you may have an allergy or immune reaction to yeast, rather than MSG intolerance.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#45
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly worried about that teapot orbiting Mars that nobody can disprove. Imagine how much it must be worth! What color might it be? Endless fascination.

You think the probability that someone on the planet has a sensitivity to a certain food/molecule is about the same as there being a teapot orbiting Mars? Everything a person consumes has a vast variety of effects in different people. We're discovering new reactions all the time. I'll tell you why I care. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that DOES have a rare and strange immune system reaction to a common f…

My partner has IBS, so I'm also frustrated with unidentified food reactions/digestive issues. But I can't help her by ignoring the best tool for discerning reality we have, which remains scientific research. The results on MSG, glutamates, is very, very clear.

"You think the probability that someone on the planet has a sensitivity to a certain food/molecule is about the same as there being a teapot orbiting Mars?"

No, I KNOW people have food sensitivities. But not to MSG or its metabolites. I have as much evidence for the teapot as the MSG sensitivity, so I couldn't really guess which is more likely. I'd be happy to change my mind on either if presented with plausible research!

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#46

> They are willing to bring MSG into their homes as a component in other foods—more than happy to accept it as a flavoring powerhouse in Doritos, instant ramen, canned soup, and bouillon cubes, or at least happy to accept its euphemisms, like “hydrolized soy protein” and “autolyzed yeast.” Those are strawman avoiders of MSG, not everyone. I avoid stuff which lists MSG under these names. As well as disodium inosinate…

People say things like this about gluten sensitivity, too, often with very detailed self-reporting. But in a controlled setting, outside of celiac, there's not a lot of evidence for NCGS, and it's very likely that a significant fraction of people who report NCGS are not in fact gluten-sensitive. As with MSG, people also have weird ideas about their gluten intake, and as with MSG there's widespread and easily illustrated sensitivity to other aspects of gluten-rich food (for instance, for a lot of people, rapid intake of lots of refined carbs will have immediate insulin effects).

The difference, of course, is that there is an underlying condition that makes gluten problematic for a small number of people --- celiac disease. There is no known "celiac of MSG", despite decades of searching for it.

Anything is possible, but the evidence overwhelmingly suggest that if you're having a reliable reaction to foods with MSG in them, it's something else in those foods you're sensitive to --- most likely salt! --- not MSG.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#47
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and we've repeatedly researched MSG on the basis of experiences like yours. It turns out there is no evidence that people who self-report as sensitive actually are. Yes, even if they're really, really sure. Maybe you are some sort of undiscovered outlier? That may be compelling to you, but it seems unlikely to me... the research indicates you're far more likely to be among those who have misidentified a cause fo…

> we've Who is this "we", and in what way does it involve yourself?

The parts of humanity involved in figuring it out, and those laymen which have bothered to follow along. I'm in the latter group, so yes, feel free to ignore me. (Just don't ignore the actual research, eh?)

LeVar Burton: you don't have to take my word for it!

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#48
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and we've repeatedly researched MSG on the basis of experiences like yours. It turns out there is no evidence that people who self-report as sensitive actually are. Yes, even if they're really, really sure. Maybe you are some sort of undiscovered outlier? That may be compelling to you, but it seems unlikely to me... the research indicates you're far more likely to be among those who have misidentified a cause fo…

> we've Who is this "we", and in what way does it involve yourself?

Scientists who have performed controlled measurements on peoples reactions to MSG.

As usual in human experience, without having specialized knowledge obtained via controlled, repeatable measurements, it is wildly difficult to accurately observe an informational correlation between two out of the literally millions of influential events on your body. Your conviction that MSG causes headaches and nausea is directly analogous to people who are convinced that proximity to arbitrary electromagnetic fields causes acute physical distress. This is standard confirmation bias. We all do it, it's a natural consequence of our brains' imprecise pattern matching combined with the extremely limited perspective any individual human has. The reliable way to mitigate this human flaw is to perform good science.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#49
post #5

I've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.

Many people don't know that tomatoes, cheeses and other foods naturally have MSG. And: > FDA considers the addition of MSG to foods to be “generally recognized as safe” (GRAS). Although many people identify themselves as sensitive to MSG, in studies with such individuals given MSG or a placebo, scientists have not been able to consistently trigger reactions. [1] [1]: https://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabel…

The placebo effect is really powerful

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#50
post #40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might just as well raise concerns about adverse effects from dill, or alliums, or fava beans. In fact, all three of those are more likely to be associated with ill effects, because they're more allergenic. The reason MSG gets such harsh pushback is that the idea of "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" or "MSG sensitivity" has been rebutted pretty comprehensively both from an empirical perspective --- decades of studies…

I'm not trying to raise concerns. And actually, I agree with everything that you said. There is obviously a lot of misinformation and most of people's reactions and stories are factually incorrect and part of a fad. We can say that for sure because we've studied it. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take that knowledge and then proceed to tell an individual, who you haven't studied, that they are wrong abo…

If I had symptoms from an imaginary syndrome, I'd think I'd be thankful to someone telling me that so I could continue looking for the true cause.
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