The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming • Hacker News Board

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#41

Post by ASalazarMX » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #32

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #24

Disclaimer: I hate complex / abusive T&C's, and I'm keen to see them abolished. But... It seems to me like we as a public are blaming corporations for our failures. As adults we're responsible for what contracts we enter into, except in cases of coercion. 99% of us were stupid enough to state that we accepted terms that we didn't even read. Especially in cases where the product/service was purely optional (Netflix, C…

The problem is the average adult doesn't get educated in the ways of contract law. In fact, I think this is a symptom of the fact that attorneys and legal practitioners are a "protected" class with a relatively high barrier to entry to basic education in their field. While everyone has the "freedom" to learn on their own time, it seems disingenuous to be able to legally bind people who honestly have no clue what they…

Let's be real. You can't expect everyone to be fluent in legalese, just as you can't expect everyone to learn plumbing, masonry, electricity or carpentry just to pick the right contractor when remodeling your house.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#42

Post by waynecochran » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

bobm_kite9 wrote: post #2

What I want is a standardized set of icons, which grant or deny specific things, that all websites can agree on, sort of like the ones available for software licensing, here: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/ It would be great if we could "standardize away" the whole T&C fiasco.

Would that hold up in court? An icon?

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#43

Post by zmmille2 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

I see a lot of people talking about Terms of Service being too long. This is a problem for governments as well: How many laws do you think apply to you right now? How long do you think it would take for you to understand exactly what you can and cannot legally do? Do you think the average police officer, or even federal agent, has a full understanding of those laws?

I hope that this is a problem that we can fix in the future.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#44

Post by lev99 » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

ape4 wrote: post #10

bobm_kite9 wrote: post #2

What I want is a standardized set of icons, which grant or deny specific things, that all websites can agree on, sort of like the ones available for software licensing, here: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/ It would be great if we could "standardize away" the whole T&C fiasco.

Icons are good. But would be even better if they were switches the user can turn off/on.

That sounds like a GPL loophole to me.

It would be much easier to extend and replace if someone could turn off the condition " You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License." [0]

I'm all for making these easier to read, but they shouldn't be line-item veto.

[0]http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#45

Post by belorn » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #24

Disclaimer: I hate complex / abusive T&C's, and I'm keen to see them abolished. But... It seems to me like we as a public are blaming corporations for our failures. As adults we're responsible for what contracts we enter into, except in cases of coercion. 99% of us were stupid enough to state that we accepted terms that we didn't even read. Especially in cases where the product/service was purely optional (Netflix, C…

Humans are very flawed. If a person sends out thousands of bill looking letters (writing in fine print that its an offer), some will just pay without looking. Adware that infects machine and inject harmful code is being presented as free games, quiz, or antivirus and those get installed. Others will get called and accept unnecessary deals, with some elderly people pilling up multiple subscriptions. Those are just the grey legal areas, as then we have the world of direct lies, fraud and scams.

People are flawed or else 99% of the illegal activity in the world would not work. Competent and responsible adults can still be tricked, fooled or bamboozled. T&C are however useally about stuff that has a $40 price tag rather than $200k car, so there hasn't been much pressure to create laws to make it fair. There is also the aspect that when T&C get into the courts the legal system has been rather skeptical about the unbalanced terms and if it can ever been said that the consumer has had informed consent, so it usually sort it self out without political intervention.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#46

Post by downandout » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

rabboRubble wrote: post #30

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #24

Disclaimer: I hate complex / abusive T&C's, and I'm keen to see them abolished. But... It seems to me like we as a public are blaming corporations for our failures. As adults we're responsible for what contracts we enter into, except in cases of coercion. 99% of us were stupid enough to state that we accepted terms that we didn't even read. Especially in cases where the product/service was purely optional (Netflix, C…

250 hours: that is the number of hours required to actually read all the adhesion contracts the typical American is exposed to in a year. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/03/terms-of-... 250 hours is a full man-month of time. Do you have a free month in your calendar to read contracts and do very little else? Nobody I know has that sort of free time. So calling people or their behaviors "failures" for…

Access to Facebook, Spotify, or Netflix is not a human right. These are private services offered by private companies who are free to offer those services on any terms they choose. It’s fine and completely understandable that you may not have time or cannot understand the agreements under which they may choose to offer you access. Your remedy for that is to not use the services in question. Your remedy isn’t to lie to them and falsely certify that you have read and contemplated them.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#47

Post by mooneater » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

True of legalese in contracts, but also Law in general has multiplied like Gremlins.

Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them.

It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand.

Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire, and it should be easier to remove a law than add one. Minimum Viable Law.

Long ago lay people had no idea what the bible said because they could not read Latin. Well lawyers are the new priests, legalese is the new Latin.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#48

Post by protonfish » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #31

If I walk into a McDonald's, I wager that the social normality requirements and laws that permit my access there and permit the owner to legally throw me out is longer than the 50,000 words cited in the article. However, I fully understand enough of them that I'm able to transact the purchase of my hamburger and leave. All the rules there are in the owner's favor, and very few are in mine. I'm not trying to be reduct…

I don't remember having to read and sign a license the last time I bought a hamburger from McDonald's. Has that changed?

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#49

Post by cabaalis » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

protonfish wrote: post #48

cabaalis wrote: post #31

If I walk into a McDonald's, I wager that the social normality requirements and laws that permit my access there and permit the owner to legally throw me out is longer than the 50,000 words cited in the article. However, I fully understand enough of them that I'm able to transact the purchase of my hamburger and leave. All the rules there are in the owner's favor, and very few are in mine. I'm not trying to be reduct…

I don't remember having to read and sign a license the last time I bought a hamburger from McDonald's. Has that changed?

You legally entered someone else's property, which is governed by many laws.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#50

Post by hshehehjdjdjd » Fri, Apr 20, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

doomslice wrote: post #37

I've been thinking of writing my own Terms of Service for my cryptocurrency-related web startup -- with plain and clear language that the average person should be able to understand. Several people have advised me that this is a horrible idea and that I should enlist the help of a lawyer to write it instead. Some things I want to protect myself against: - People suing if they lose their private keys and are no longer…

> People suing if a bug in my software causes them to lose access to their account or coins

Everything else sounds pretty reasonable, but this doesn’t. If you cause someone harm, you should expect that they will attempt to recover damages from you, regardless of what your T&C says. I cannot fathom why you think you should be protected against this eventuality. Buy insurance instead.

Regarding your question, notwithstanding the hand-wringing on this page, a given T&C clause tends to exist because someone has been sued over the matter being clarified. If the law specified each point, or if society were less litigious, these clauses would not be necessary. But this is not the case. I think you would be a fool to risk your company’s wellbeing to satisfy the whims of uninformed HN commenters. Almost all of them will blindly accept and be bound by your T&C regardless of their stated beliefs on this site, and, even if that were not the case, they are a tiny, unrepresentative slice of your market.