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Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

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Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#41

Post by chiggins »

dragonwriter wrote: post #18
acchow wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property value is reassessed on change-of-ownership. Lower housing stock leads to inflated home prices, causing higher taxes paid by more-recently-purchased homes.

> Property value is reassessed on change-of-ownership. Actually, it's reassessed annually, there is just a limit to annual assessment increases except with qualifying events. Which doesn't change the fact that Prop 13 limited nominal rates to lower values than many jurisdictions (including core Bay Area ones) were before Prop 13; jurisdictions aren't making up with artificially low assessments on long-held properties…

This is an outlandish argument to make. Prop 13 contributes to shortage of housing stock. Shortage of housing stock causes prices to rise. In the event of any sale (existing property or new), the price will be higher than it would have been without Prop 13 in place. The same marginal tax rate on the new (or transferred) home now amounts to a larger amount than it would have otherwise.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#42

Post by auxym »

littlestymaar wrote: post #20

The XXth century's “American way of life” myth, with individual homes in suburbs and a car to go to work. That just doesn't scale well, espacially with the geography of the Bay Area. And if you're really looking for a “who”: the car manufacturers who fuelled this myth through advertising.

Car and oil corporations, and not just advertising: lots of lots of lobbying, too.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#43

Post by toasterlovin »

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22
bradlys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

I don't personally care about newcomers all that much, but I was born in California and the housing shortage caused by prop 13 made it impossible for me to stay without severe sacrifices to quality of life compared to what is possible in other states. That I may someday inherit real estate from one of my parents doesn't really change the fact that I need a home to live and raise children in the meantime, while my parents are still alive.

So I left.

Except that I can't help but feel that there is something deeply dysfunctional about a society/culture/place (CA) which makes propagation of the next generation not really possible. And whose children get pushed out in favor of extremely wealthy outsiders. I'm not complaining, I've simply accepted that in order to be able to raise a family, I have to join the long tradition of Americans migrating elsewhere inside of the country in search of a better future.

But it sure as hell isn't how I would have things work if I were designing them from scratch.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#44

Post by SlowBro »

bradlys wrote: post #19
fricat1ve wrote: post #2

Not one mention of Prop 13? Poor reporting. It's basically the rent control story writ large. Everyone who bought in the 20th century has such an "amazing deal" that they won't give it up unless you a) entice them with a better deal or b) gore their oxen and repeal 13.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

> On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Doesn’t this scenario also describe handing down family farms? If so, repealing this law could be a terrible double-edged sword. Lots of families could lose the farm when mom and pop die, unable to afford the tax bill.

I could be mistaken but I believe that’s the scenario this law is intended to protect.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#45

Post by bluedino »

fricat1ve wrote: post #2

Not one mention of Prop 13? Poor reporting. It's basically the rent control story writ large. Everyone who bought in the 20th century has such an "amazing deal" that they won't give it up unless you a) entice them with a better deal or b) gore their oxen and repeal 13.

I don't get how Prop 13 was ever passed.

If you own something that's taxable (like property in CA), shouldn't you have to pay tax on the value of the damn thing?

If you're paying tax on the value of your house/land, it only makes sense to pay a tax based on the current value, not the one 30 years ago. Typically your house/land is going to go UP in value, and so do your taxes.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#46

Post by elvirs »

I dont understand whats the outrage is about. Bay Area / San Francisco housing market is tough because that area is special. Its special because its home to world's most innovative companies that pays its staff world's highest salaries. So it basically became an exclusive neighborhood for the wealthiest and most talented (demanded) people. And it stay special because those who are not in demand cant afford to live there. You think it will be better if housing became cheaper and all those who could not afford to live there now would be able to move there and turn the place into a shit show like Queens and Brooklyn have become? Overcrowded houses with too many cars on the street, all the double parking and chaos not to mention filth on the streets and the noise? You cant afford it for a reason, if you were needed there Google would offer you a salary high enough for you to be able to afford it. Everybody is basically in outrage that they cant get into and live in this exclusive, high class neighborhood but if everybody could afford to live there it would not be exclusive and high class anymore and those things that attracted you there back then would not be in place any more and the area would become into a place that you run away from in the first place.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#47

Post by RubenSandwich »

elvirs wrote: post #46

I dont understand whats the outrage is about. Bay Area / San Francisco housing market is tough because that area is special. Its special because its home to world's most innovative companies that pays its staff world's highest salaries. So it basically became an exclusive neighborhood for the wealthiest and most talented (demanded) people. And it stay special because those who are not in demand cant afford to live th…

You must not of visited Queens or Brooklyn since the late 80s because they are now very vibrate and livable communities.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#48

Post by jon_richards »

bluedino wrote: post #45
fricat1ve wrote: post #2

Not one mention of Prop 13? Poor reporting. It's basically the rent control story writ large. Everyone who bought in the 20th century has such an "amazing deal" that they won't give it up unless you a) entice them with a better deal or b) gore their oxen and repeal 13.

I don't get how Prop 13 was ever passed. If you own something that's taxable (like property in CA), shouldn't you have to pay tax on the value of the damn thing? If you're paying tax on the value of your house/land, it only makes sense to pay a tax based on the current value, not the one 30 years ago. Typically your house/land is going to go UP in value, and so do your taxes.

The idea that people would get kicked out of their family homes due to increasing taxes without increasing someone's ability to pay them. Not to mention people on fixed income. Then add the fact that most people who voted already had their California home and were just voting for a tax cut for themselves.

What's the alternative? Maybe the discounted tax could be collected when the house is sold? Put in a limit where the total backlog of tax is capped by the amount the house has appreciated in value to avoid making selling the house impossible.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#49

Post by littlestymaar »

auxym wrote: post #42
littlestymaar wrote: post #20

The XXth century's “American way of life” myth, with individual homes in suburbs and a car to go to work. That just doesn't scale well, espacially with the geography of the Bay Area. And if you're really looking for a “who”: the car manufacturers who fuelled this myth through advertising.

Car and oil corporations, and not just advertising: lots of lots of lobbying, too.

You're indeed right, but advertising is even more pernicious than lobbying: it makes people love the problem.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#50

Post by elvirs »

RubenSandwich wrote: post #47
elvirs wrote: post #46

I dont understand whats the outrage is about. Bay Area / San Francisco housing market is tough because that area is special. Its special because its home to world's most innovative companies that pays its staff world's highest salaries. So it basically became an exclusive neighborhood for the wealthiest and most talented (demanded) people. And it stay special because those who are not in demand cant afford to live th…

You must not of visited Queens or Brooklyn since the late 80s because they are now very vibrate and livable communities.

I live in New York and unfortunately have to be in Queens and Brooklyn regularly. if circling the neighboring blocks for 20 minutes every night to find a parking spot is what you call a livable residential community then ok.
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