(2017)
Thanks. Added.
Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
41–50 of 51 posts
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#42The users unable to contain themselves without launching into Nazi-swastika-flamewar make it impossible for HN to discuss this at all.
It's all new accounts, a shame too, because the article is genuinely interesting.
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
A few million people died under that misappropriated symbol though. It sucks you can't use it for its intended message anymore, but most peoples' sympathies lie elsewhere.
Should we also abandon cross? So many people died during the Crusades
The cross is a sign of solidarity for supporters of one particular person who died on it, not as a sign of solidarity for the people who put him on it.
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. The sadder thing is people not knowing swastika's history and that it is auspicious for almost 2 billion people including me a, a Buddhist. The sadder thing is people falling over each other to acknowledge it as a hate symbol rather than trying to reclaim it. How about those of is who actually want to end hate end our comments with this 卐?
Sorry, but to the western world it is a symbol of genocide and a dark time in history, it will never be reclaimed. No one cares about the previous history of the symbol, it is forever tarnished.
Buddhism and its symbols have survived for millennia and will outlast your country and all Nazis as well.
Edit: the same can be said for Hindus.
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#45The injustice aside, I wonder if Nazis fleeing German might have had the side effect of making German reconstruction easier while limiting those who fled into making chocolate in Bariloche under fake names. But on the other hand there was Klaus Barbie.
That's unlikely...
Those who fled probably did so for a reason, namely the fear of serious prosecution. They would have had a rather difficult time to continue exerting any influence after '45. It may have had an influence in reducing the number of trials and possibly resentment in the German population, but from what I gather there wasn't ever a risk of widespread open disagreement with the Nuremberg trials etc.
In a certain way, the most significant effect on reconstruction (and de-nazification) may have been their use as a reservoir for prosecutions in later years. The Eichmann trial, for example, had a lasting positive influence for German-Israeli relations, provided us with one of the most meticulously researched accounts of the bureaucrats' guilt, and an excellent treatise on responsibility. In Hannah Arendt's seminal work "The Banality of Evil" it changed the narrative from "Some Germans were evil" to today's "it happened once, so it can happen again".
The dark truth of de-nazification was that large parts of the German upper-middle class almost seamlessly continued their careers after the war. There were simply too many to prosecute them all, or even to shut them out of leadership positions. The rise of the cold war also changed the incentives for the western powers to quickly rebuild the country's economic and political strength. A few hundred or thousands in Argentina simply didn't matter in the grand scale of things.
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#46The users unable to contain themselves without launching into Nazi-swastika-flamewar make it impossible for HN to discuss this at all.
It's far too late to de-politicise this forum.
Also, is there any English-language forum of this size anywhere in the world where one could discuss swastikas (be they Buddhist, Hindu or Nazi) without a flamewar?
I've seen civil discussions on the topic in Chinese forums, where the sensitive topics revolve around Imperial Japan and more recent political issues, but it's doubtful this topic is possible in the western world except in small communities.
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#47Is there anything sadder or creepier than an hourglass with a swastika on it? What a horrible time for humanity.
Although I don't believe this is worse than the injustices of generations past, it's certainly sad to witness politics in 2018 contain a plethora of virtue signalling, charades, and ineffectual action. We support the killings of innocents with our military industrial complex, and our media tells us its necessary because otherwise we will lose jobs[1]. Where is the investigation of 500 million missing dollars of charitable relief to Haiti[2]? Not to mention, where is the media coverage of the CLOUD act, and why did congress underhandedly sneak a law that harms Americans rights into a "must pass" omnibus spending bill without[3]? The war on drugs and prison state? Or any of the homeless crises? Unjust and corrupt healthcare and public health? Cities with murder rates higher than anywhere in Africa or the Middle East? Surging suicide rates[4]? And we are just scratching the surface here, and when you get to the bottom there are things you can't even talk about, like human rights for Palestinians[5]
Tyranny, injustice and oppression were not simply eliminated at the end of WWII. And living today to witness the convenient virtue signalling about a historical artifact of a long-defeated tyrant, juxtaposed with the willingness to tolerate current injustice, is really sad.
But isn't that what made Nazi Germany possible? Our willingness to tolerate injustice, so long as it doesn't happen to us? Our desire to follow authority--to serve in the court of despots? That is the irony here, which calls to light the real meaning of this kind of virtue signalling: If we lived under the reign of any of those other tyrants, in Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, or wherever, would we all suddenly be among activists, not just mere virtue signallers championing the virtues of our leaders?
I don't mean to come down hard on you personally; I just personally wish to see the conversation move away from moral grandstanding to moral responsibility.
1 - https://theintercept.com/2016/09/09/wolf-blitzer-is-worried-...
2 - https://www.npr.org/2015/06/03/411524156/in-search-of-the-re...
3 - https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/responsibility-deflect...
4 - https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/health/us-suicide-rate...
5 - https://theintercept.com/2018/04/02/israel-killing-palestine...
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, but to the western world it is a symbol of genocide and a dark time in history, it will never be reclaimed. No one cares about the previous history of the symbol, it is forever tarnished.
That’s quite an arrogant statement. You may not care, but as one among a billion Hindus, we certainly do.
Which is why I was specific to western culture. Swastika is Nazi in that realm.
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#49The users unable to contain themselves without launching into Nazi-swastika-flamewar make it impossible for HN to discuss this at all.
Like George Carlin said, "Symbols are for the symbol-minded."
Re: Large collection of Nazi artifacts discovered in Argentina (2017)
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Yes. The sadder thing is people not knowing swastika's history and that it is auspicious for almost 2 billion people including me a, a Buddhist. You, and your fellow Buddhists, need to realize that Hitler had a far more profound impact on Western civilization (unfortunately) than did the Buddha, and that Westerners who recognize the swastika as a symbol of hate do so because for half the world, and most of a centur…
> no one in the West is likely ever going to see a Nazi swastika and see a manji first You're assuming that anti-Holocaust people are going to outlast pro-Holocaust people, but based on history this seems like a questionable assumption. E.g. it took less than 50 years for LoTR to go from an anti-war parable inspired by the horrors of WW1, to being an action movie glorifying indiscriminate killing. Similarly, compare…
Tolkein said the Lord of the Rings wasn't an anti-war parable or allegory, although that's a valid interpretation, it's wasn't the author's intent. And the books had plenty of war and indiscriminate killing in them, being based as they were on Germanic and European mythologies which considered war a glorious and noble act.
Maybe in a thousand years Westerners will forget about Nazism and the swastika, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they will replace that knowledge with the Buddhist interpretation of the same symbol. Sure, stranger things have happened, it's not impossible, but it seems incredibly unlikely.
It's certainly not going to happen within my lifetime or yours.