Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hope as you progress through your career you learn to be more respectful of diverse ideas. I'm a software engineer, I have to have discussions with designers and business people who also sometimes ask for things that just aren't reasonably doable given time and budget constraints. It's our job as professionals to explain this using a tone and words that educates others on what the technical constraints are.
> I hope as you progress through your career you learn to be more respectful of diverse ideas. I'm a software engineer, I have to have discussions with designers and business people who also sometimes ask for things that just aren't reasonably doable given time and budget constraints. It's our job as professionals to explain this using a tone and words that educates others on what the technical constraints are. Funny…
Structural engineers are unsung heroes
41–50 of 54 posts
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a lot of debate about what kind of activity software development is. The camp that doesn't see it as engineering argues that programming is a craft, or that code is "grown". I think one of the key differentiators for engineering is that something engineered should work by design after it has been built (not including regular maintenance of a machine). A defect requires a special process to repair all built in…
In software development you are solving new problems continually. If you weren't you could just call a library function with some parameters and be done with it. Structural engineering is much like calling library functions with certain parameters and then making sure it all works and is safe. You know how what you are constructing differs from existing buildings and use that to decide what to do. You don't (usually)…
Would it be too presumptuous to assume you have less structural engineering experience than you do with software?
You seem to be forgetting that vast majority of software development is churning out the same old buggy barely maintainable CRUD apps in dull enterprise environments or for tight fisted agency clients.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
In software development you are solving new problems continually. If you weren't you could just call a library function with some parameters and be done with it. Structural engineering is much like calling library functions with certain parameters and then making sure it all works and is safe. You know how what you are constructing differs from existing buildings and use that to decide what to do. You don't (usually)…
Would it be too presumptuous to assume you have less structural engineering experience than you do with software? You seem to be forgetting that vast majority of software development is churning out the same old buggy barely maintainable CRUD apps in dull enterprise environments or for tight fisted agency clients.
Precisely. I would have been less charitable in my response. Most software development is plumbing. To say we're solving new problems all the time and then to set that in some unclear opposition to what structural engineers do... I mean, just like software, each SE's project is different and yet similar across cases. That's uninformative, to say that least. So if you want to contrast them, it's best to actually know what you're talking. Also, I always hated occupational narcissism. It's a sign of narrow-mindedness.
(Besides, the question about whether software development is engineering or craft is very much real. John Allen, John McCarthy, Bertrand Meyer and Peter Denning have all written interesting things about this subject.)
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#44Coming from the profession, I often think that the problem is quite the opposite -- that there're too many engineers with an outsized ego. In almost every way, aside from schooling, the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman.
"the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade"
Can you name these? Because that statement is false if interpreted literally.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#45Coming from the profession, I often think that the problem is quite the opposite -- that there're too many engineers with an outsized ego. In almost every way, aside from schooling, the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman.
> the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman.
Not sure how to read that or how you meant it, but a good or bad engineer can have a big financial effect on a project in a way that a tradesman couldn't.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#46Coming from the profession, I often think that the problem is quite the opposite -- that there're too many engineers with an outsized ego. In almost every way, aside from schooling, the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman.
"the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade" Can you name these? Because that statement is false if interpreted literally.
I've personally worked at different times as a carpenter (residential projects) and structural engineer (long-span bridges, tall buildings). I mean it quite literally.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#47Coming from the profession, I often think that the problem is quite the opposite -- that there're too many engineers with an outsized ego. In almost every way, aside from schooling, the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman.
> the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman. Not sure how to read that or how you meant it, but a good or bad engineer can have a big financial effect on a project in a way that a tradesman couldn't.
A construction project is overdetermined to a degree that few other enterprises are. In terms of compensation, an hour of a practicing structural engineer (aside from Calatrava & co.) is worth about as much as a carpenter's (who's paid his dues, so at about the same level of investment as engineer's into his profession). In terms of know-how or sweat equity or risk minimization, it's near impossible to say who, if anyone, contributes disproportinately more than others.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the structural engineer's trade is no different than any other construction trade, and has a contribution -- framed in financial terms, or in terms of common good -- on the scale of that of a (qualified) tradesman. Not sure how to read that or how you meant it, but a good or bad engineer can have a big financial effect on a project in a way that a tradesman couldn't.
A construction project is overdetermined to a degree that few other enterprises are. In terms of compensation, an hour of a practicing structural engineer (aside from Calatrava & co.) is worth about as much as a carpenter's (who's paid his dues, so at about the same level of investment as engineer's into his profession). In terms of know-how or sweat equity or risk minimization, it's near impossible to say who, if an…
Are you talking about the on site engineers supervising the project build (kinda menial work), or the up front design engineers working with the architects?
For the former yeah I can kinda see where your coming from, but for the latter there is huge scope to affect how the project turns out financially in a way that a carpenter or supervising engineer just doesn't have.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#49One of the best general Engineering books I've read is 'Design Paradigms'. It's an excellent book about the importance of understanding failures in Engineering. The author is Professor of Civil Engineering and a professor of history at Duke University, so all the examples are roads/bridges/etc. As a Data/SWE guy, I still enjoyed reading it a lot. https://www.amazon.com/Design-Paradigms-Histories-Judgment-E...
All of Henry Petroski's books are good. A couple that I'm particularly fond of are The Pencil and The Book on the Bookcase.
Re: Structural engineers are unsung heroes
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
A construction project is overdetermined to a degree that few other enterprises are. In terms of compensation, an hour of a practicing structural engineer (aside from Calatrava & co.) is worth about as much as a carpenter's (who's paid his dues, so at about the same level of investment as engineer's into his profession). In terms of know-how or sweat equity or risk minimization, it's near impossible to say who, if an…
Are you talking about the on site engineers supervising the project build (kinda menial work), or the up front design engineers working with the architects? For the former yeah I can kinda see where your coming from, but for the latter there is huge scope to affect how the project turns out financially in a way that a carpenter or supervising engineer just doesn't have.
A structural engineer in the US, at a minimum, requires a Professional Engineer license. The licensing requirements are similar elsewhere in North America, and in Britain. In some states (such as California), to practice structural engineering requires a Structural Engineer license. So anytime I mentioned structural engineering in this thread, it goes without saying...