Why rural Americans are so pissed off • Hacker News Board

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#41

Post by cosmiccartel » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

secstate wrote: post #33

cosmiccartel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are very few high paying jobs > There is limited access to medical care > Local government ineptitude has a very real daily impact > Small tax base means surprisingly high taxes, but real struggle to maintain infrastructure (especially schools) Sounds like poor white and poor black Americans face fairly similar issues. > “Traditional” upbringing, often religious based, that breed skepticism toward anything “f…

Slightly off topic, but to your last point: I've done some thinking about this, and the idea that a civil liberty granting you access to firearms will help in a government coup or if the government really comes for you seems laughable on it's face. Your best bet is not a wild-west style shoot out, but alliances. Local government, corruption in the national guard or local sheriff's dept. When the federal government co…

I actually agree with a lot of this. If I thought that 15 random wild-west fantasists could pull of a coup, I'd see more of an issue with the right to own guns.

But the point isn't that when the government comes for me in particular, I can stop them. It's that when the government does something so horrific that the citizenry as a whole decides to do something, they can. Local, ad-hoc militias across the country could definitely get the job done.

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#42

Post by wjn0 » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 7:10 PM UTC

RickJWag wrote: post #35

cosmiccartel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is quite another to have "outdated" (for lack of a better word) moral beliefs There are plenty of better words. "Unfashionable" works. > anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti- I find it interesting that the left think of the right as the "anti" crowd, while the right think the same of the left. > to _know_ that the majority of the country does not agree, and still somehow _expect_ that these views to be enforced in thei…

Indeed. A majority of Americans support making late-term abortions illegal. (With good reason. It really is a baby human that's being slaughtered.)

42 states already have bans on late term abortions. Federal law tends to be purposefully general on issues like this.

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#43

Post by wjn0 » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

cosmiccartel wrote: post #28

wjn0 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a bigger problem is the unholy conflation of fiscal and social conservatism, by the interviewer, possibly by the author, and quite likely by the people being studied themselves. It is one thing to support fiscal conservatism. The very nature of these towns lends itself to the ideology, and it has its merits - cf. tech leaders who supported Trump. It is quite another to have "outdated" (for lack of a better wo…

> It is quite another to have "outdated" (for lack of a better word) moral beliefs There are plenty of better words. "Unfashionable" works. > anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti- I find it interesting that the left think of the right as the "anti" crowd, while the right think the same of the left. > to _know_ that the majority of the country does not agree, and still somehow _expect_ that these views to be enforced in thei…

I thought about the "anti-" phrasing after posting, and of course you're correct. It's not really relevant to my point, though. I agree "unfashionable" is a better term too.

As an example, less than 20% of Americans believe abortion should be totally illegal (2015) [1]. Granted, this is only one "social issue", but I think it's somewhat representative of my point.

There's a difference between advancing your political beliefs and not accepting the current status, and participating in antisocial behaviour in response, as the article suggests. Whether or not this behaviour is commonplace, is, well, a separate point entirely.

[1] http://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#44

Post by neo4sure » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

secstate wrote: post #34

neo4sure wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the future food will be grown closer to the city in verticle farms. When that happens what will these folks do?

This a bit like AI. It's 2018. Where are your vertical farms? You want to talk efficiency, soil on the ground will be more efficient than soil in the air for at least the next 50 to 100 years. Eventually we'll even live in starships and colonize distant planets if we don't kill ourselves first, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that will not be our defacto mode of living in my life time, and the same goes for…

Please note soil will not be used in verticle farms. The limiting factor is the cost of electricity. Please note the curve of the cost of electricity over time its downward trending and will eventually be closer to zero.

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#45

Post by neo4sure » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

warmcat wrote: post #40

neo4sure wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the future food will be grown closer to the city in verticle farms. When that happens what will these folks do?

Are you sure it will be sustainable for feeding ~8 billion people (Yes, I am talking about the world in general)? Agriculture also creates ecosystem needed to sustain the planet. Not just feed people.

Yes, I am pretty sure of this based on the startups in this area. Like AI this thing will sneak up on you.

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#46

Post by cosmiccartel » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 11:01 PM UTC

wjn0 wrote: post #43

cosmiccartel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is quite another to have "outdated" (for lack of a better word) moral beliefs There are plenty of better words. "Unfashionable" works. > anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti- I find it interesting that the left think of the right as the "anti" crowd, while the right think the same of the left. > to _know_ that the majority of the country does not agree, and still somehow _expect_ that these views to be enforced in thei…

I thought about the "anti-" phrasing after posting, and of course you're correct. It's not really relevant to my point, though. I agree "unfashionable" is a better term too. As an example, less than 20% of Americans believe abortion should be totally illegal (2015) [1]. Granted, this is only one "social issue", but I think it's somewhat representative of my point. There's a difference between advancing your political…

> There's a difference between advancing your political beliefs and not accepting the current status, and participating in antisocial behaviour in response

I'm a little unclear on what you're talking about here. What antisocial behavior in particular? I'm part of that 20%, and wondering at what point does expressing my opinion become "antisocial".

For reference, roughly 6% of the population is vegan[1]. Are they antisocial for protesting what is, in their opinion, murder?

[1] https://www.reportbuyer.com/product/4959853/top-trends-in-pr...

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#47

Post by wjn0 » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

cosmiccartel wrote: post #46

wjn0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought about the "anti-" phrasing after posting, and of course you're correct. It's not really relevant to my point, though. I agree "unfashionable" is a better term too. As an example, less than 20% of Americans believe abortion should be totally illegal (2015) [1]. Granted, this is only one "social issue", but I think it's somewhat representative of my point. There's a difference between advancing your political…

> There's a difference between advancing your political beliefs and not accepting the current status, and participating in antisocial behaviour in response I'm a little unclear on what you're talking about here. What antisocial behavior in particular? I'm part of that 20%, and wondering at what point does expressing my opinion become "antisocial". For reference, roughly 6% of the population is vegan[1]. Are they anti…

A few weeks ago I walked past a group of people with huge (2m x 3m) posters of aborted fetuses outside one of the biggest buildings of my university campus. These same people have been accused of berating people who disagree with them. I find that behaviour and form of protest. Do I think it should be illegal? Definitely not. Do I think it's anti-social? Yes. As a mirror to this example, if in my (liberal) home state anti-gun nuts were to lobby for a change in gun policy with pictures of dead school kids from shooting outside my university, I'd be similarly displeased with the nature of that political rhetoric.

There are leftist groups that protest in anti-social ways to varying degrees, so it's by no means unique to the right. An extreme example would be groups masquerading as Antifa destroying property. (Like I said, varying degrees of anti-social behaviour.) One of the positions of the author, it seems, is that anti-social political discourse is particularly dangerous in small towns, due to the echo chamber effect.

So, to answer your question simply: ideally, political discourse is well-reasoned, and measured in its intensity. One person expounding on their political beliefs with the intention of causing genuine emotional distress in another individual would be anti-social, in my view.

Re: Why rural Americans are so pissed off

#48

Post by cannonedhamster » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:31 AM UTC

cosmiccartel wrote: post #30

poulsbohemian wrote: post #7

My politics are on the left wing of the political spectrum, but as I sit here in my home in rural America (pop 30,000, farm based economy, nearest city of 250,000, 1 hour drive away) it would seem to me that people are mad because: -There are very few high paying jobs -There is limited access to medical care -Local government ineptitude has a very real daily impact -Small tax base means surprisingly high taxes, but r…

> There are very few high paying jobs > There is limited access to medical care > Local government ineptitude has a very real daily impact > Small tax base means surprisingly high taxes, but real struggle to maintain infrastructure (especially schools) Sounds like poor white and poor black Americans face fairly similar issues. > “Traditional” upbringing, often religious based, that breed skepticism toward anything “f…

I live in a very liberal state that has a red belt. Let me tell you, if anything, the racism in white America is vastly undersold. I am white. I've had numerous occasions where people will use racial epithets with me, a complete stranger, in a business setting. Not all people who are rural are racists, but the percentage that are openly hostile to POC or even people with different backgrounds is far higher in small communities. You don't need to go far to find people who literally are okay with murdering people over politics and skin color. I don't think this is some recent change either, it's more likely that the article got it right, the world changed and they chose not to. They aren't bad people, but that doesn't mean they get a pass on the parts of them that are bad.

I don't think urban people feel as alienated by the government. I think that they feel less likely to trust people from urban areas with outsize power telling them that they were born wrong and using those beliefs to inflict pain and harassment on already people already dealing with a lot.

Regarding gun laws unless the country up and decides to make a constitutional amendment nothing is going to happen with guns. No one is coming after them. To paraphrase a statement "Once Americans decided killing schoolchildren was acceptable the gun debate was over". The mass killings are going to continue happening. No good people with guns will show up. And we'll all have thoughts and prayers on our Facebook feeds. The gun debate has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with the rights of a hobby being more important than the rights of citizens to live. No amount of rifles or handguns will be able to overthrow a government that can literally kill you from a locked room a world away. If guns alone could stop the US military there would be no ongoing war in the middle east. Firearms are fun, I totally get it, but let's be real that we're choosing fun over human life.