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We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

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Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think it makes no sense. It was full of fake constructed emotion moments. Manual override? You cant program your own ship? Okay. What about not putting your most experienced war general but one of the zilion androids? Or the sick guy with cancer who will volunteer because he has 2 months to live. I mean star wars arent so much scifi but fantasy in scifi setting. Battles would surely not be fought like this. Bu…

I suppose it’s the romantic notion of “captain goes down with the ship”. Plus it’s probably not a common situation that you would have an empty capital ship with a kamikaze pilot — let alone pursuers that can chase it across hyperspace.

It seems to me that it was meant to be a symbolic female power eliminating the male power moment.

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#42
They did coordinate. It does not make any sense that they wouldn’t after the ending of Empire.

Lando was not going to rescue Han. He was there just in case they needed backup.

Leia was going in to unfreeze Han. When they needed to get away quickly, they couldn’t carry him frozen, and he needed time to come to after being unfrozen. My guess is that they planned to hide out until Luke came in, or Leia planned to go “well I don’t know who unfroze him. Probably Chewy, but definitely not me, I am just a bounty hunter.” Getting caught was not a part of the plan.

The droids came in to sneak in the lightsaber. Luke knew they weren’t enough to pay for Han. Jabba would have never accepted that.

The plan for Luke was to mind trick Jabba. If that didn’t work, it was to grab his lightsaber and fuck shit up. He got caught because Leia got caught. If Leia was still set up as an undercover bounty hunter, and R2D2 was close by, he could have just started slicing and dicing. Instead he had to fight the Rancor.

In the end, it was sheer luck that Jabba was doing the typical villain thing instead of just shooting them on the spot. To be fair, he clearly had a weakness for being theatrical. That’s why he kept Han frozen.

But. Star Wars is full of ret conning by fans and by Lucas. None of this crap was thought through before filming. Well not a lot at least. I believe the basic plot was, but details were not. Like I don’t think that Lando’s character existed before ANH was filmed. Which does drive me kinda nuts because people hail SW as such a complete universe. In reality, Lucas did a lot of just random stuff in the first three movies and then it had to become canon, sometimes through really crazy explanations. See the gaffe with parsecs being a unit of distance and how what makes the Falcon so fast is it’s navigational computer (a detail that was never mentioned in any movies for any ship, including the Falcon), and not because they screwed up how measurements of space and time work to sound cool.

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star Wars was just meant to be a kids’ movie and not a sacred document I saw The Last Jedi, had a great time, and came home to find Star Wars fans apoplectic about it, picking apart all kinds of things ("how does rey know how to swim?", "how does leia survive space?", etc). The original trilogy would never survive similar scrutiny. I went to see a kids movie about space wizards, and that's what I got. It was fun.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to enjoy what they want, but this movie was difficult for me, even by Star Wars standards. If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way. Also, why couldn't the captain leave and have the computer pilot the ship? Maybe it's just that the original trilogy slipped in to me before I got old enough to where I thin…

> If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way.

For the same reason naval battles in the real world weren't always fought by ramming ships into other ships. Ships are expensive, hyperdrives are expensive, and more valuable as ships than as ballistic mass. It would be a waste of resources for it to become a common tactic.

It was a lucky gamble that paid off.

>Maybe it's just that the original trilogy slipped in to me before I got old enough to where I think about such things

The OT is just as ridiculous. The trench run on the Death Star makes no sense outside of the context of the World War 2 film it was lifted from, no one in their right mind would design AT-ATs with such a high and vulnerable center of gravity, stormtrooper armor clearly does nothing against teddy bears and small rocks, spaceships bank and make noises in space, etc. Even lightsabers are just "cool laser swords" and metaphors for "space samurai" but don't make a lot of sense as weapons in a universe with telekinesis and blasters. Actual samurai weren't stupid enough to use their katanas if they had spears, bows and eventually guns available, yet I don't recall ever seeing a Jedi sniper, or the lightsaber version of a naginata.

Sound military tactics and plausible design were never really a thing in Star Wars.

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#44
post #38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the ships jumping into lightspeed, it is easy economical calculation. How long it takes to build a ship? They also aimed at one big commander ship not wiping entire fleet. I think it is reasonable for ship systems to be programmed to avoid collisions when jumping to lightspeed. Manual override would be reasonable measure to pull that move.

I also think it makes no sense. It was full of fake constructed emotion moments. Manual override? You cant program your own ship? Okay. What about not putting your most experienced war general but one of the zilion androids? Or the sick guy with cancer who will volunteer because he has 2 months to live. I mean star wars arent so much scifi but fantasy in scifi setting. Battles would surely not be fought like this. Bu…

[deleted]

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#45

They did coordinate. It does not make any sense that they wouldn’t after the ending of Empire. Lando was not going to rescue Han. He was there just in case they needed backup. Leia was going in to unfreeze Han. When they needed to get away quickly, they couldn’t carry him frozen, and he needed time to come to after being unfrozen. My guess is that they planned to hide out until Luke came in, or Leia planned to go “we…

To be fair, I think the parsec line was supposed to be intentional. Han was making up some obvious nonsense and wanted to see whether or not these two suckers were smart enough to call him out on it. For some reason, this was retconned to the Kessel Cluster being a maze of black holes and parsecs being used correctly, because of how difficult it was to navigate around all of those gravity wells in hyperspace. Even though that makes even less sense.

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to enjoy what they want, but this movie was difficult for me, even by Star Wars standards. If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way. Also, why couldn't the captain leave and have the computer pilot the ship? Maybe it's just that the original trilogy slipped in to me before I got old enough to where I thin…

> If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way. For the same reason naval battles in the real world weren't always fought by ramming ships into other ships. Ships are expensive, hyperdrives are expensive, and more valuable as ships than as ballistic mass. It would be a waste of resources for it to become a common tactic. It was a lucky gamb…

> For the same reason naval battles in the real world weren't always fought by ramming ships into other ships.

If a single ship could wipe out a whole enemy fleet via ramming in terrestrial naval battles, every real-world naval battle would be fought by ramming. Also we wouldn't have naval fleets, nor probably naval battles at all. The real reason we don't fight by ramming is that, at best, you get a 1:1 trade, and normally not even that much.

So, this explanation doesn't hold water for me.

All the inconsistencies you mentioned earlier are for sure cases where you have to suspend disbelief, but (most of them) at least seem internally consistent. That is, they don't reconcile well against reality, but they don't contradict other things we see in the story. I don't feel the same way about the end of the battle in TLJ.

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#47
post #35

I have a similar question about a different movie: in Die Hard , Bruce sure whines a lot about how the police are following the Plan . But...what were they supposed to do, if not follow their best available Plan? What did Bruce want them to do, if he had his druthers? Should they...NOT follow The Plan? Follow the second -best available Plan? Going forward, how ought The Plan be modified? Should they add a "now we rol…

I've always thought he was whining because he knew the Plan would not work, because things had changed. The Plan was designed for someone taking over a building, holding hostages, and demanding a ransom of some sort. Indeed, Hans even makes it seem like this is the case; assuming, correctly, that the police will follow standard procedures for such an incident. McCain (Bruce) knows the truth, that Hans is going to blow the building and it's not about hostages.

Pre-9/11, if a plane was hijacked, it was flown somewhere and there was some sort of ransom; no one thought a plane would be hijacked and flown into a building, so no one resisted.

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to enjoy what they want, but this movie was difficult for me, even by Star Wars standards. If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way. Also, why couldn't the captain leave and have the computer pilot the ship? Maybe it's just that the original trilogy slipped in to me before I got old enough to where I thin…

> If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way. For the same reason naval battles in the real world weren't always fought by ramming ships into other ships. Ships are expensive, hyperdrives are expensive, and more valuable as ships than as ballistic mass. It would be a waste of resources for it to become a common tactic. It was a lucky gamb…

Ramming (or the threat thereof) is very much a real-world tactic:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_ship

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellburners

Re: We Dare You to Explain Luke’s Plan to Rescue Han in ‘Return of the Jedi’

#50
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we can just destroy entire enemy fleets by jumping to lightspeed with one ship, why are not all battles fought that way. For the same reason naval battles in the real world weren't always fought by ramming ships into other ships. Ships are expensive, hyperdrives are expensive, and more valuable as ships than as ballistic mass. It would be a waste of resources for it to become a common tactic. It was a lucky gamb…

Ramming (or the threat thereof) is very much a real-world tactic: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_ship * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellburners

It's a tactic, but it isn't used exclusively, and when it has been used regularly, it tends not to be more effective than conventional warfare.

The premise that because hyperspace ramming works, it should render all other forms of warfare in the Star Wars universe obsolete seems like nitpicking to me. Of course it works. It seems to be consistent with physics in the Star Wars universe - ships do travel through and interact with physical space while entering and exiting hyperspace, and collisions with realspace objects do occur (see Han Solo mentioning the dangers of flying "right through a star" in ANH.)

So if the tactic works in universe, but why isn't it used all the time? Because throwing starships at each other and risking the loss of your own personnel and equipment is a desperate and potentially suicidal tactic and not doing that is almost always a better idea. Far more things can possibly go wrong than can go right.

Plus, once it becomes a regular tactic, countermeasures will get developed to take it into account - the enemy will disperse their command and control capabilities into multiple smaller ships or attempt to engage from a greater distance or whatever. So despite being wasteful, it's also short-sighted.

Notwithstanding the real answer being that it wouldn't be as interesting to watch ships just kamikaze one another at lightspeed.

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