Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

pathsensitive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 136 posts

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#41

Post by anonytrary »

> I do want to dispel the idea that everything would be better if only we switched to project-based learning. The opposite is closer to true.

Both of these maximalist notions are so far from true, it's not even worth asking which one is closer.

> Project-based learning is the most inefficient form of learning that still works.

Where it lacks efficiency in learning, it boasts incredible precision in application. Project-based learning is practical, if not fundamental. You will learn to do something tangible, but of course this may not be the most efficient way to teach conceptual lessons. Concepts and understanding (aka "the math") will be required to decrease learning curves for future applications.

So yes, both project-based and course-based learning are important, it isn't useful to completely eliminate one or the other, but I do feel the world is currently partial towards course-based learning.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#42

Post by adamsea »

djrobstep wrote: post #30
schoosi wrote: post #22

I attended a university with a strong co-op program, and I personally believe it is the best possible solution. Classes were focused on theory and my three 6-month co-ops were spent working on meaningful software projects at real companies. As a result, I was able to build up a solid background in Computer Science theory, didn't have to deal with the shortcomings of group class projects, and learned how to ship produ…

Because education as a system isn't designed for actually learning, it's designed for perpetuating a meaningless and arbitrary game of credentialism to justify the socio-economic hierarchy. And to babysit children so that their parents can spend more time participating in capitalism.

Even for the people getting Phds in, say, mathematics? Or the undergrads studying mathematics en route to getting their Phd?

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#43

Post by hardwaresofton »

avmich wrote: post #3

> So, for programming, we need to (1) figure out the core concepts to teach, and (2) pick languages that make the concepts readily available. James, the main argument for project-based learning is ability to make learning interesting. Considering that students aren't vessels that need to be filled, but torches which need to be lit, this can trump other approaches. Importance of being interested in the material can be…

Agreed -- in the right kind (probably nonexistent?) of educational atmosphere, encouraging students to just build something interesting using the techniques that are being taught could serve the same purpose in my mind as project-based teaching.

It feels like what really good teachers excel at is inspiring students to spend more thime thinking about the subject than is strictly necessary, even getting them to like it, so their minds can run away with the subject.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#44

Post by djrobstep »

adamsea wrote: post #42
djrobstep wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because education as a system isn't designed for actually learning, it's designed for perpetuating a meaningless and arbitrary game of credentialism to justify the socio-economic hierarchy. And to babysit children so that their parents can spend more time participating in capitalism.

Even for the people getting Phds in, say, mathematics? Or the undergrads studying mathematics en route to getting their Phd?

I am describing education as a system. Plenty of real learning happens within it, but this is not what the system is optimized for or what it depends on.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#45

Post by joshdance »

slm_HN wrote: post #16

This reads like a very thinly veiled ad for the author's $500 Software Design web class. Project based learning won't work, traditional learning won't work, only my class will work. In fact the source he quotes (himself) claims he can give you a year's worth of experience in an hour. But why doesn't project based learning fail? Well, in his example Bob, who wants to learn network programming, pairs with Alice, who so…

agree with this. Theoretical example, seems to tilt to advanced the authors view point. Would love some data on project based learning.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#46

Post by truculation »

avmich wrote: post #3

> So, for programming, we need to (1) figure out the core concepts to teach, and (2) pick languages that make the concepts readily available. James, the main argument for project-based learning is ability to make learning interesting. Considering that students aren't vessels that need to be filled, but torches which need to be lit, this can trump other approaches. Importance of being interested in the material can be…

>the main argument for project-based learning is ability to make learning interesting

Exactly. Btw are their any popular video games out there that actually help kids to write mods for them?

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#47

Post by [deleted] »

slm_HN wrote: post #16

This reads like a very thinly veiled ad for the author's $500 Software Design web class. Project based learning won't work, traditional learning won't work, only my class will work. In fact the source he quotes (himself) claims he can give you a year's worth of experience in an hour. But why doesn't project based learning fail? Well, in his example Bob, who wants to learn network programming, pairs with Alice, who so…

[deleted]

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#49

Post by adamzerner »

djrobstep wrote: post #30
schoosi wrote: post #22

I attended a university with a strong co-op program, and I personally believe it is the best possible solution. Classes were focused on theory and my three 6-month co-ops were spent working on meaningful software projects at real companies. As a result, I was able to build up a solid background in Computer Science theory, didn't have to deal with the shortcomings of group class projects, and learned how to ship produ…

Because education as a system isn't designed for actually learning, it's designed for perpetuating a meaningless and arbitrary game of credentialism to justify the socio-economic hierarchy. And to babysit children so that their parents can spend more time participating in capitalism.

I don't know why this is downvoted. I think that Bryan Caplan's book The Case against Education - Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money (https://press.princeton.edu/titles/11225.html) makes a pretty strong argument to support the related points.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#50

Post by mjburgess »

adamsea wrote: post #42
djrobstep wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because education as a system isn't designed for actually learning, it's designed for perpetuating a meaningless and arbitrary game of credentialism to justify the socio-economic hierarchy. And to babysit children so that their parents can spend more time participating in capitalism.

Even for the people getting Phds in, say, mathematics? Or the undergrads studying mathematics en route to getting their Phd?

PhD is skilling in academic skills.

Undergrad and most masters programs are still just going for information recall.

This is why PhDs are specific, intensive, daily, guided, etc.These are all the characteristics of skill aquistion.

Compare, say, with paino tuition. All skill acquisition is basically a form of apprentiship. PhDs are apprentice academics.

Ask yourself the simple question: after finishing this education what skillful activities can I actually do?

After primary education: reading, writing, remembering, etc. After secondary: basically the same. After tertiary: basically the same. After PhD: run a particular kind of experiment, analysis, etc. After 10 years in a programming team: solve professional programming problems. After 10 years with a piano tutor: play the piano.

The question "what can I do?" seems always answered with: not much. This should be quite shocking, and today it is -- really, that is the correct answer. Your BSc amounts to "not much".

Post reply on HN