Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston • Hacker News Board

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#41

Post by rayiner » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:27 AM UTC

wsxcde wrote: post #30

rayiner wrote: post #27

> 2. My visit coincides with a dramatic change of direction in US policies relating to inequality and extreme poverty. The proposed tax reform package stakes out America’s bid to become the most unequal society in the world, and will greatly increase the already high levels of wealth and income inequality between the richest 1% and the poorest 50% of Americans Really hard to take this seriously. I don’t think anyone…

Could you explain how the statement "before the Trump tax cuts, US corporate tax rates were higher both in theory and in practice than in Germany, France, Australia, Canada, etc. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/541797699/fact-check-does-the... rebuts the professor's claim that the tax cuts will "greatly increase the already high levels of wealth and income inequality"?

It’s more the “bid to become the most unequal society” framing of the point. That makes it seem like the US is doing something different than everyone else. The entire OECD has been cutting corporate tax rates massively over the past few decades: https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/corporate-tax-cuts-and-....

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#42

Post by book_mentioned » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:27 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #14

manicdee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implicit, undocumented, de facto aim of moving homeless on to somewhere else is to have them die quietly out of the public eye. A better way to solve the “homeless problem” is to give people homes, counselling, and access to work. This is because homelessness is usually a result of losing a job and thus a house and thus one’s self esteem (and in some cases, one’s mind).

Worked in Utah. TL;DR Housing the homeless is cheaper than the chronic costs of not housing the homeless. "Utah Reduced Chronic Homelessness By 91 Percent; Here's How" https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni...

Disputed counterpoint: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13894796#13895345

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#43

Post by ma2rten » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #32

maxxxxx wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is it controversial that the major beneficiaries of the tax reform will the richest parts of society? I thought that's pretty obvious.

It’s a very biased framing. Even with the changes, our tax system is more progressive than say France or Germany.

"Overall, the American system remains the most progressive tax system in the developed world, whereas most social democracies like France, Germany and Sweden have actively regressive systems heavily reliant on value-added taxes. Then again, U.S. pay-outs aren't nearly as progressive, and so our government reduces inequality through taxes and transfers much less than peer countries."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/04/u-s-t...

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#44

Post by timster3001 » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:32 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

> 2. My visit coincides with a dramatic change of direction in US policies relating to inequality and extreme poverty. The proposed tax reform package stakes out America’s bid to become the most unequal society in the world, and will greatly increase the already high levels of wealth and income inequality between the richest 1% and the poorest 50% of Americans Really hard to take this seriously. I don’t think anyone…

hey, two problems I see with your post: a) taxation is no measure for (in-)equality, policy is - direct the money at the poor and it reduces inequality. the countries you mentioned do that, the US, not so much (see your very own link to the WaPo). b) yes, Paul Ryan has already proposed cutting programs benefiting the poor to tackle the self-inflicted rise of deficit caused by the tax cuts.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#45

Post by downandout » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:33 AM UTC

WaylonKenning wrote: post #33

downandout wrote: post #20

"The proposed tax reform package stakes out America’s bid to become the most unequal society in the world, and will greatly increase the already high levels of wealth and income inequality between the richest 1% and the poorest 50% of Americans....It is against this background that my report is presented." It's interesting that he is a law professor (not an economics professor) and yet he stated this as if it were in…

It's interesting that you're an Entrepreneur (not a Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights) and yet you've rendered this entire report meaningless, in-spite of all the additional body of evidence considered in the report.

I read it. He presents no evidence that the recent tax reform has exacerbated the wealth gap. Of course, he couldn’t have, because the reforms were only recently passed, and thus it is not possible to know what the long-term outcome will be. By his own admission, he framed the entire report in light of his false statement of fact made at the beginning.

So, while there are some interesting factual tidbits sprinkled throughout the report, any conclusions that it reaches based upon those facts are meaningless, because they are colored by the false statement of fact.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#46

Post by nraynaud » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #40

matthewmcg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that we aren't certain that changes in tax rates alone might increase inequality, but the author is also speaking about that the cuts to welfare programs and social services that will probably follow the tax bill. The sentence that you elided from your quotation is: "The dramatic cuts in welfare, foreshadowed by the President and Speaker Ryan, and already beginning to be implemented by the administration…

We can argue all day about whether these cuts will come from efficiency-based savings (cutting out waste/fraud etc) or whether they will actually “shred crucial dimensions of a safety net already full of of holes,” but I don’t think anyone can argue against the fact that the way he phrased that shows his extreme political bias. Which, again, is a bad way to start off a supposedly fact-based report if you want anybody…

As seen from an extreme right point of view, every reasonable position that is not deep conservative is seen as biased far to the left.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#47

Post by rayiner » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

timster3001 wrote: post #44

rayiner wrote: post #27

> 2. My visit coincides with a dramatic change of direction in US policies relating to inequality and extreme poverty. The proposed tax reform package stakes out America’s bid to become the most unequal society in the world, and will greatly increase the already high levels of wealth and income inequality between the richest 1% and the poorest 50% of Americans Really hard to take this seriously. I don’t think anyone…

hey, two problems I see with your post: a) taxation is no measure for (in-)equality, policy is - direct the money at the poor and it reduces inequality. the countries you mentioned do that, the US, not so much (see your very own link to the WaPo). b) yes, Paul Ryan has already proposed cutting programs benefiting the poor to tackle the self-inflicted rise of deficit caused by the tax cuts.

If taxation isn’t the problem, and the US tax system is more progressive than many European counterparts, why the hell lead with the tax reform point? If he had led with: we spend too much on middle class welfare and not enough on really poor people, as the WaPo article explains, he would’ve had a point.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#48

Post by askmike » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #17

alexandercrohde wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was my understanding that SF in particular is an incredibly rich county and that there are adequate beds available in shelters for the homeless. Is this not the case?

There aren't enough beds, and many homeless people prefer sleeping on the street, then in a shelter, for a number of logical reasons. 1. They are more likely to be assaulted or robbed in a shelter. Shelter staff may or may not do shit to help you. 2. Shelter admission hours can be limited - they may be incompatible with their job. 3. You are expected to be drug and alochol free in a shelter. For someone with an addic…

> 1. They are more likely to be assaulted or robbed in a shelter. Shelter staff may or may not do shit to help you.

I'm not sure you can still call something like that a shelter to be honest.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#49

Post by downandout » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:44 AM UTC

nraynaud wrote: post #46

downandout wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can argue all day about whether these cuts will come from efficiency-based savings (cutting out waste/fraud etc) or whether they will actually “shred crucial dimensions of a safety net already full of of holes,” but I don’t think anyone can argue against the fact that the way he phrased that shows his extreme political bias. Which, again, is a bad way to start off a supposedly fact-based report if you want anybody…

As seen from an extreme right point of view, every reasonable position that is not deep conservative is seen as biased far to the left.

If you're referring to me, I'm actually somewhere in the middle. But I simply can't stand seeing political propaganda masquerading as legitimate news or facts - on either side of the aisle. So when I see such things, I'm going to point it out.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#50

Post by stefan_ » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 2:55 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

> 2. My visit coincides with a dramatic change of direction in US policies relating to inequality and extreme poverty. The proposed tax reform package stakes out America’s bid to become the most unequal society in the world, and will greatly increase the already high levels of wealth and income inequality between the richest 1% and the poorest 50% of Americans Really hard to take this seriously. I don’t think anyone…

Who mentioned corporate tax rates? There is a simple widely accepted measure for economic inequality, the Ginii index, where the USA have steadily moved towards greater inequality, from a starting point that is already a lot more unequal than other NATO or western nations. You even seem to agree that this latest tax reform will not fundamentally change this course.

This is a much more comprehensive measure than looking at individual tax rates or even the tax systems progressiveness. Sure, of what poor Americans earn, they might keep comparably more but that is of little use when illness costs them their job and many times their net worth - their companions in Germany, France and Sweden might pay a 40% tax rate but they are not paying out of pocket for healthcare.