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OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

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Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#41

Post by detaro »

TomK32 wrote: post #38
ccozan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, by law you are required to have a proper ID issued by an EU country. No passport required, but it might be useful, since many online services require a passport, for example activating a SIM card.

Well, the only document internationally recognized are passports. Not every country has identity cards like the german Personalausweis, let alone there being an international standard for them like there are for the passports. The passport is simply the international baseline.

Nobody would complain if they demanded a a recognized identity document (like you need to identify yourself to state representatives). There is no good reason for Schufa to demand stricter documents than the state.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#42

Post by chopin »

expertentipp wrote: post #32
ccozan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, by law you are required to have a proper ID issued by an EU country. No passport required, but it might be useful, since many online services require a passport, for example activating a SIM card.

> many online services require a passport This is notorious and infuriating violation by many service providers in Germany.

Which ones? I never came across any. They may require a "Personalausweis" (like banks) but not a passport (which is a different thing). An EU citizen can come well by without ever needing one, as he can travel the EU by personal id alone. I only need a passport for international travel.

And that makes sense. You can be denied a passport, but not a personal id.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#43

Post by hocuspocus »

a254613e wrote: post #25
vavoida wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just raw images would cause major privacy & data protection issues

Fair enough. I've donated, even though I still think that developing OCR app might be a bit waste of resources. I still find it to be lesser "evil" than schufa - which, I'm pretty sure, is also extremely discriminatory towards people who move to Germany and giving them worse score by default. Hopefully you'll get enough optional data to be able to prove that too.

Not defending the Schufa, I strongly believe that any kind of aggregated credit history should never be in the hands of private companies.

But when I moved to Germany, I was under the impression that potential landlords just want to make sure you don't have negative entries, and didn't care much for the actual score. Luckily I managed to find an apartment belonging to a Russian investor, who didn't ask for my record at all. In the end I never got myself to even request a free report.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#44

Post by TomK32 »

expertentipp wrote: post #29
lispm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A citizen of an EU country residing in Germany is under no obligation to hold a passport. Any EU citizen needs a passport or equivalent in Germany. One needs it already when entering Germany. Though you don't need to carry it all time with you. But you need to have one.

A citizen of EU country has no obligation to hold a passport while in another EU country in case their country issues other document confirming both identity and nationality of a citizen e.g. a national ID.

lipsm wrote "passport or equivalent" and you are jumping to "passport".

Here's the law: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/freiz_gg_eu_2004/__8.html

EU citizens in Germany have to carry a passport or equivalent.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#45

Post by expertentipp »

TomK32 wrote: post #44
expertentipp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A citizen of EU country has no obligation to hold a passport while in another EU country in case their country issues other document confirming both identity and nationality of a citizen e.g. a national ID.

lipsm wrote "passport or equivalent" and you are jumping to "passport". Here's the law: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/freiz_gg_eu_2004/__8.html EU citizens in Germany have to carry a passport or equivalent.

> EU citizens in Germany have to carry a passport or equivalent.

..and no one has the right to demand explicitly passport if one is able to produce an equivalent and valid document e.g. national ID.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#46

Post by chopin »

vavoida wrote: post #3

FYI in case you speak German, this project is currently all over the news in Germany, causing quite a stir. TV http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/schufa-101.html https://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/video/sendungen/wdr-aktuell/vi... https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Aktivisten-wollen-Schufa-Code-k... Online https://www.wired.de/collection/life/openschufa-macht-bonita... http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/service/kreditwuerdigkeit-w..…

Good luck convincing Germans to surrender their data. I would be very surprised seeing this working out.

Also, you will get data from a very skewed demographic.

AFAIR there is an upcoming EU law which requires (at least some) transparency on how scores are evaluated, in expectation of algorithms making life changing decisions. We'll see how that's panning out.

EDIT: to clarify, I'd love to see this working out. But I never would give data of this kind to an unknown organization.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#47

Post by a254613e »

hocuspocus wrote: post #43
a254613e wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I've donated, even though I still think that developing OCR app might be a bit waste of resources. I still find it to be lesser "evil" than schufa - which, I'm pretty sure, is also extremely discriminatory towards people who move to Germany and giving them worse score by default. Hopefully you'll get enough optional data to be able to prove that too.

Not defending the Schufa, I strongly believe that any kind of aggregated credit history should never be in the hands of private companies. But when I moved to Germany, I was under the impression that potential landlords just want to make sure you don't have negative entries, and didn't care much for the actual score. Luckily I managed to find an apartment belonging to a Russian investor, who didn't ask for my record…

Yes, that's what's important for landlords. You get a letter from scufa saying "There are no negative entries for this person". That's enough.

However if you try to get a phone contract, credit card, internet contract, or anything else that requires payment in the future then your score is pretty much the only relevant part.

And that score is (maybe it varies by country) completely abysmal by default if you've moved to Germany - and it improves very slowly (<1%/yr).

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#48

Post by expertentipp »

detaro wrote: post #41
TomK32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the only document internationally recognized are passports. Not every country has identity cards like the german Personalausweis, let alone there being an international standard for them like there are for the passports. The passport is simply the international baseline.

Nobody would complain if they demanded a a recognized identity document (like you need to identify yourself to state representatives). There is no good reason for Schufa to demand stricter documents than the state.

> There is no good reason for Schufa to demand stricter documents than the state.

There is - they are nosy, invasive, predatory fuckers.

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#49

Post by hocuspocus »

a254613e wrote: post #47
hocuspocus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not defending the Schufa, I strongly believe that any kind of aggregated credit history should never be in the hands of private companies. But when I moved to Germany, I was under the impression that potential landlords just want to make sure you don't have negative entries, and didn't care much for the actual score. Luckily I managed to find an apartment belonging to a Russian investor, who didn't ask for my record…

Yes, that's what's important for landlords. You get a letter from scufa saying "There are no negative entries for this person". That's enough. However if you try to get a phone contract, credit card, internet contract, or anything else that requires payment in the future then your score is pretty much the only relevant part. And that score is (maybe it varies by country) completely abysmal by default if you've moved…

I had no issue signing up for internet with 1&1 for two years, and got a free SIM card in the process.

As for credit cards, that's pretty common, traditional banks want to see your salary landing on your checking account for a few months before they issue you a credit card. Comdirect gave me a prepaid VISA in the meantime.

Anyway I ended up using a debit card (the MasterCard from N26) for almost everything, and later on I got a Gold credit card from Advanzia (I believe they do get information from the Schufa, but you also start with a pretty low monthly limit and need to prove them you pay your bills before they raise it).

Re: OpenSCHUFA – Reverse-engineering the algorithm of the German credit score agency

#50

Post by vavoida »

larrydag wrote: post #34

I work in the credit finance space. The first thing that jumps out to me is the security and privacy of people's credit data details. There is a lot of personal information that could be used for stealing one's identity. What assurances are there that this data is protected and anonymous?

The data and credit scores are sent from the credit score agencies to each person directly (via snail-mail). After that they can decide to upload their "anonymized" data or not. In order to develop a privacy focused uploading process we started the crowdfunding campaign.
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