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How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

theguardian.com

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Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#41

Post by istjohn »

brudgers wrote: post #28
istjohn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the model does more to confuse than explain the problem of American racial segregation. For one, it suggests that blacks share an equal responsibility for segregation as whites. It suggests that whites and blacks are both free actors with equal power and self-determination. Neither of these are true in America, of course. Whites started out with a huge surplus of power and control over blacks, and the Civil…

"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful" -- George Box

Of course, all models are wrong in as much as they simplify reality, but my opinion is that this model is not even useful _for understand the dynamics of American segregation_. It's interesting and probably has other legitimate applications in understanding real-life social phenomena, high school lunchroom seating segregated into jocks, geeks, stoners, and goths perhaps. But it's very misleading as a metaphor to describe American housing segregation.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#42

Post by aaron-lebo »

kiliantics wrote: post #23
rangersanger wrote: post #5

I had never heard of sundown towns before this article and plan to read the book they link to in the article [1]. One silver lining of the last year or so for me, personally, has been a sort of awakening to the real issues that have persisted in the shadows of the US for marginalized populations. There has always been some level of awareness, but the very concrete and contemporary stories that seem to be pouring out…

The progressive bubbles are still rife with racism, it's just not as obvious. Think of stop and frisk, school district segregation, gentrification, modern day redlining, etc. "Progressive" people often still hold subtly racist views. The kind of thing you see black people point - say like in "Get Out" and "Insecure" - is completely common place, where well-meaning liberal people perpetuate racist systems.

Poor whites don't have any more power than poor minorities. Was watching a pbs doc about the rise of the klan in North Carolina. One of the big attractions was that the wealthy whites looked down on the poor whites, and by joining the klan they could at least be above someone else.

The wealthy whites condoned and fought the Civil War. The poor didn't own slaves. They were probably racist and bigoted, but it was the kind of behavior learned form their masters.

It's incredibly frustrating to see people with the "correct" views gloat in their correctness and do nothing to actually fix racism or inequality (they are the benefactors of this inequality). I used to attend a small baptist church. One of my dad's friends loved to make off color jokes. That same man is friends with and has done more for illegal immigrants and minorities than some of the most progressive rich folk ever have. They'd probably tar and feather him and make a big show about how good they were for doing it.

School districts are a great example. Rich kids go to nice private cools and their parents often live in communities that don't pay taxes that support public schools. I've met good upstanding Republicans and rabid Obama supporters who do this, and somehow don't see the contradiction.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#43

Post by aaron-lebo »

istjohn wrote: post #29

One terribly insidious aspect to racism in America is how invisible it is to white people. We are so segregated that most white people will not learn about black people's experiences with racism organically. It's only through articles like this and cell phone footage of violent police interactions that we become aware of this cruel alternative reality so many people live in. The disconnect exists within city-limits,…

No, it's invisible to people who don't try to educate themselves, who segregate themselves from the poor.

It literally takes driving 20 minutes out of the walled neighborhoods and into poor parts of any city to dissuade yourself of this. Rural racism should surprise people even less because the people are fighting over limited resources in those areas. You don't even have to go that far. One of my friends (minority) had a story about how he woke up one day in his apartment and some dude was crawling through the window and he had to beat him off with a bat to get him out. These are the same kind of apartments that people live in six to a room (that's what illegal immigration looks like). Growing up in public schools, there were lots of kids like this and stories like this, and it sure as hell is not something that happens in neighborhoods with nice cars parked out front. How people have gone 20 or 30 years without seeing this is strange.

That it could be surprising to people in this day and age (and it's not because it's not obvious, it's because people aren't looking or don't really care), is the biggest problem there is.

When I was 18, I had lived a mostly sheltered middle class life and then moved to South Dallas for six months for church work. The things you saw that weren't 10 miles from every rich kid's doorstep were appalling, it at times was like living in a different country. Regular murders, people walking around with their guts hanging out in plastic bags because they got stabbed, schools that had barbed wire and metal detectors.

You don't have to do much to educate yourself on it, there is no excuse.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#44

Post by Larrikin »

IIIIIIIIIIIIIII wrote: post #32
olivermarks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's sad that someone with real experience and open prejudices/honest thoughts shared about Missouri gets down voted. The Guardian is a UK 'champagne socialist' news organization that devotes a lot of column inches/pixels to appraisals of other societies and is highly opinionated. I read it often, not necessarily a criticism. I'd like to explore north st louis with Ed Pilkington and see his reaction to the residents…

An aside about "opinionated", because something I did a while ago gave me a different perspective. As a foreigner (who once lived in the US for almost a decade) I try to keep up with US news. Quite a while ago I actually added foxnews.com to my reading list - because I heard so many bad things about it (I had never even gone there before, but my list of regularly read websites is very small anyway), and I wanted to k…

Fox news the website has been making news on other sites in recent months. The website itself had a right lean but was far far more moderate than the tv channel it was based off. There have been recently been far more hard right posts and people have taken note of the changes making it more like the commentary on the tv channel.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#45

Post by istjohn »

Clubber wrote: post #35
istjohn wrote: post #29

One terribly insidious aspect to racism in America is how invisible it is to white people. We are so segregated that most white people will not learn about black people's experiences with racism organically. It's only through articles like this and cell phone footage of violent police interactions that we become aware of this cruel alternative reality so many people live in. The disconnect exists within city-limits,…

You are absolutely right about that. I was brought up that racism was for poor white trash and anyone who is racist shouldn't be associated with. Of course I live my life that way, so all the people who I interact with aren't racist. Honestly, even people on the street I talk with don't say things like that. The last time someone said something like that was some old bumpkin in a truck at a gas station said something…

Yeah, another element is that we don't even associate with other white people from different cultural or class backgrounds regularly. And people who have "controversial opinions" will be careful to keep their thoughts to themselves if there is any doubt about where the other people in the room stand. (Of course, things are different in the pseudonymous World Wide Web.) As a resident of a large, midwestern city, I can tell you that the suburbs are chock full of racists who know better than to let on to anyone who isn't "one of them." And that means more than having pale skin.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#46

Post by scarface74 »

I don't disagree with the article but let me give a more positive anecdote. I'm Black and live in Forsyth County GA.

Yeah this Forsyth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErjPmFulQ0

We were looking for a house and were welcomed with opened arms by the builder, I can still go to pick up my son from a teen group where no one knows me and ask any random person have they seen my son and they know exactly who I'm talking about. But I've never felt the least bit of hostility and my son made friends quickly. He's dating a White girl - if he wants to date anyone in his school he doesn't have too much of a choice - and I've met her parents and they are perfectly supportive of it.

I've never experienced anything that I could perceive as racist here and neither has my family. There is probably still some of the old guard around but the county has bern growing fast, and probably is drowning out the old guard.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#47

Post by olivermarks »

IIIIIIIIIIIIIII wrote: post #32
olivermarks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's sad that someone with real experience and open prejudices/honest thoughts shared about Missouri gets down voted. The Guardian is a UK 'champagne socialist' news organization that devotes a lot of column inches/pixels to appraisals of other societies and is highly opinionated. I read it often, not necessarily a criticism. I'd like to explore north st louis with Ed Pilkington and see his reaction to the residents…

An aside about "opinionated", because something I did a while ago gave me a different perspective. As a foreigner (who once lived in the US for almost a decade) I try to keep up with US news. Quite a while ago I actually added foxnews.com to my reading list - because I heard so many bad things about it (I had never even gone there before, but my list of regularly read websites is very small anyway), and I wanted to k…

always good to know different 'news' organizations agendas and to skim widely across viewpoints to decide one's own point of view and perspective IMO

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#48

Post by istjohn »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #43
istjohn wrote: post #29

One terribly insidious aspect to racism in America is how invisible it is to white people. We are so segregated that most white people will not learn about black people's experiences with racism organically. It's only through articles like this and cell phone footage of violent police interactions that we become aware of this cruel alternative reality so many people live in. The disconnect exists within city-limits,…

No, it's invisible to people who don't try to educate themselves, who segregate themselves from the poor. It literally takes driving 20 minutes out of the walled neighborhoods and into poor parts of any city to dissuade yourself of this. Rural racism should surprise people even less because the people are fighting over limited resources in those areas. You don't even have to go that far. One of my friends (minority)…

But if you aren't aware of a problem, you have no way to know there is something you need to learn. If only everyone knew what they didn't know. I guess that's why we need more articles like this.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#49

Post by aaron-lebo »

istjohn wrote: post #48
aaron-lebo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's invisible to people who don't try to educate themselves, who segregate themselves from the poor. It literally takes driving 20 minutes out of the walled neighborhoods and into poor parts of any city to dissuade yourself of this. Rural racism should surprise people even less because the people are fighting over limited resources in those areas. You don't even have to go that far. One of my friends (minority)…

But if you aren't aware of a problem, you have no way to know there is something you need to learn. If only everyone knew what they didn't know. I guess that's why we need more articles like this.

Entirely true, but not sure how distanced you have to get from regular day to day society that it isn't obvious.

It is a major problem if entire groups of people can live such abstracted lives that they aren't aware this is going on. I struggle to believe that people really aren't aware of this and instead it requires constant discussion on well to do websites yet it never changes. Sometimes it comes off as tragedy porn.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#50

Post by leetcrew »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #42
kiliantics wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The progressive bubbles are still rife with racism, it's just not as obvious. Think of stop and frisk, school district segregation, gentrification, modern day redlining, etc. "Progressive" people often still hold subtly racist views. The kind of thing you see black people point - say like in "Get Out" and "Insecure" - is completely common place, where well-meaning liberal people perpetuate racist systems.

Poor whites don't have any more power than poor minorities. Was watching a pbs doc about the rise of the klan in North Carolina. One of the big attractions was that the wealthy whites looked down on the poor whites, and by joining the klan they could at least be above someone else. The wealthy whites condoned and fought the Civil War. The poor didn't own slaves. They were probably racist and bigoted, but it was the k…

> parents often live in communities that don't pay taxes that support public schools

how? pretty sure in the US everyone pays property tax (directly or indirectly), some of which is used to fund the school system. you can't just opt out of paying into that system at all.

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