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Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

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Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#41

Post by ianai »

sxates wrote: post #8

Though I would argue with some of the author's assumptions about carbon footprints and power grid challenges, he's right that fewer cars ultimately means a better environment and less carbon. No argument with that. However... As much as I'd love to just tell everyone to ride a bike to work, or the grocery store, or to drop off their kids, or whatever, the reality is that in most cities (especially US cities) a car is…

It’s too bad the US doesn’t have a “redo” cycle. Ie changing infrastructure or rebuilding anything is almost never seriously done. It’s like we’re all locked into the same mold.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#42

Post by ced »

sxates wrote: post #8

Though I would argue with some of the author's assumptions about carbon footprints and power grid challenges, he's right that fewer cars ultimately means a better environment and less carbon. No argument with that. However... As much as I'd love to just tell everyone to ride a bike to work, or the grocery store, or to drop off their kids, or whatever, the reality is that in most cities (especially US cities) a car is…

electric car DO have a material impact on carbon emissions

Isn't the point of the article that it has little real impact, because in most cases it shifts the CO2 production from the car to the power plant? How long will it take until most energy needs in North America are met by renewables?

change our zoning laws, and encourage denser living spaces that are built for people instead of cars, but we have to recognize this will take decades.

If we wanted, we could redesign our cities for public transit and walkability in short order. The fundamental problem is that most North Americans don't want the changes you propose, and that is why our CO2 footprint is three times the world average.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#43

Post by JimboOmega »

d1zzy wrote: post #28

I don't know about others but the reasons why I bike to work have nothing to do with reducing carbon or being green or being healthy, it's simply that I find it a lot more fun to get to work by bike than drive. It actually takes 20 more minutes by bike (and that's without including the immediate shower and changing clothes afterwards) but I can get a nice workout, feel refreshed and full of energy and it feels nice t…

I know a lot of people who would probably bike to work if there was a pleasant bike path between their residence and their work... but that's not a reality.

Street cycling - even with bike lanes - can be terrifying, especially for those without experience. In the urban environment cars, trucks, other bicyclists, pedestrians... all operate in a very unpredictable way that frequently forces you to make snap decisions that impact your safety directly. It's chaos, and it's very intimidating.

Even if the weather cooperates and the distance is reasonable. If it is dark and raining it feels miserable and dangerous.

I totally agree that when I can bicycle to work, I arrive in a much better mood, assuming I didn't almost get killed or miss my transit connection. Commuting by motor vehicle (in my case, mostly motorcycle) builds frustration and stress. But the bicycle takes 45 minutes more each way, and the return commute - which is almost all uphill and in the dark - is just impractical in the winter.

I'd advocate we give up on the "huge suburban campus" model of offices that assumes everyone will arrive by motor vehicle that takes the freeway, and build more offices near residences, but I don't know if that kind of thing will ever happen.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#44

Post by IgorPartola »

stale2002 wrote: post #29
npsimons wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh I suppose you could argue about the environmental cost of producing the extra calories consumed by the cyclist. The human body is very efficient. I'd be extremely surprised if my 15 minute bicycle commute to work burned more than 100 calories on top of my BMR. There's just no comparison. > I guess all you valley dwellers should probably cycle to work to save the planet for us all. We will applaud you from our AW…

> The human body is very efficient. Uhh, you are not using the right metric. Yes, humans take calories, and convert it to energy at a rate of 25%. But you aren't eating coal and turning it into energy. The ways that humans turn sunlight into energy is that the sunlight hits plants, which gets harvested by humans, which gets fed to cows, and then get harvested, prepared, and transported to stores, and THEN it is consu…

This. Last estimate I saw said that you consume 10KW by just sitting there and breathing doing nothing. Because agriculture to feed you takes so much damn energy. Really we are talking about the difference in that roughly 10KW figure between a driver and a cyclist.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#45

Post by vinceguidry »

I pay a lot of money for the privilege of being able to conveniently take public transit to work. I'd blame it on Atlanta, but honestly, there is nothing any city could do to make it convenient enough for me to take transit vs. just driving a car if I didn't really want to do it. I drive my car or take an Uber for literally everything that's not going to work or walking.

America is just so big and so spread out that cars are the default option. You can't compare America to Europe in this regard because European countries are each the size of one US state and have been around for centuries.

Their roads and buildings and stuff just scream "bike transport". Just try to convince a significant fraction of Americans to use bikes to get around. Never going to happen. Bikes are legit dangerous in the vast majority of US urban areas.

Sure the smaller European nations have great transit networks. So do the smaller and older US states.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#46

Post by IgorPartola »

xyzzyz wrote: post #32
IgorPartola wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying to make a distinction between fully powered vehicles and not. You could also make a distinction between fully protected vehicles (two tons of steel around you in the form of a car) and not.

Human assisted electric motorcycles are fully powered when the human is not assisting them. You are of course right that popular ICE vehicles, cars and motorcycles, are much, much heavier than humans, and so have little hope to achieve similar efficiency to humans on bicycles. However, if your constraints is to go as fast as bicycles, and be as safe as bicycles, I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to be more…

My whole point is that it is a choice between a safe fast method of transportation that works on virtually all weather, and an unsafe mostly seasonal slow method of transportation that is significantly greener. A powered bicycle that can go 15 mph is not in the same category as a motorcycle that can go 80 mph. Basically, if it can go on the freeway or not is the distinction I am making. Your electric assisted bicycle is just a better, less green bicycle.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#47

Post by Carioca »

ced wrote: post #42
sxates wrote: post #8

Though I would argue with some of the author's assumptions about carbon footprints and power grid challenges, he's right that fewer cars ultimately means a better environment and less carbon. No argument with that. However... As much as I'd love to just tell everyone to ride a bike to work, or the grocery store, or to drop off their kids, or whatever, the reality is that in most cities (especially US cities) a car is…

electric car DO have a material impact on carbon emissions Isn't the point of the article that it has little real impact, because in most cases it shifts the CO2 production from the car to the power plant? How long will it take until most energy needs in North America are met by renewables? change our zoning laws, and encourage denser living spaces that are built for people instead of cars, but we have to recognize t…

> Isn't the point of the article that it has little real impact, because in most cases it shifts the CO2 production from the car to the power plant?

Power plants are a lot more efficient and better at managing pollution. Plus, the grids are trending towards greener sources.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#48

Post by sampo »

averagewall wrote: post #16
npsimons wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh I suppose you could argue about the environmental cost of producing the extra calories consumed by the cyclist. The human body is very efficient. I'd be extremely surprised if my 15 minute bicycle commute to work burned more than 100 calories on top of my BMR. There's just no comparison. > I guess all you valley dwellers should probably cycle to work to save the planet for us all. We will applaud you from our AW…

Cycling isn't that great. Humans are about 10% efficient at converting food energy to power. Plants are about 10% efficient at converting sunlight to food energy. So that's 1% efficiency from solar to pedals. Once you count the fossil fuels used in farming, which I forget the numbers for, I think a motorbike works out better for greenhouse gas emissions than cycling. Electric bike is probably the best. That's assumin…

> Plants are about 10% efficient at converting sunlight to food energy.

More like 0.25% to 0.5% into the edible parts of crop plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#49

Post by jim-greer »

JimboOmega wrote: post #43
d1zzy wrote: post #28

I don't know about others but the reasons why I bike to work have nothing to do with reducing carbon or being green or being healthy, it's simply that I find it a lot more fun to get to work by bike than drive. It actually takes 20 more minutes by bike (and that's without including the immediate shower and changing clothes afterwards) but I can get a nice workout, feel refreshed and full of energy and it feels nice t…

I know a lot of people who would probably bike to work if there was a pleasant bike path between their residence and their work... but that's not a reality. Street cycling - even with bike lanes - can be terrifying, especially for those without experience. In the urban environment cars, trucks, other bicyclists, pedestrians... all operate in a very unpredictable way that frequently forces you to make snap decisions t…

You might consider an electric bike, both for reducing the time and making the uphill return less onerous.

Re: Driving a "Green car" vs cycling

#50

Post by upofadown »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #22

One issue is that in the United States, bicycle fatality for mile traveled is around 3-10x worse than for cars. https://bicycleuniverse.info/bicycle-safety-almanac/ Given the prevalence of cars in the United States and the lack of protected bicycle lanes in many places, it is probably safer to go to where you want by car than by bike.

My interstellar matter transmitter is the safest of all!

Sure you end up as a fine mist of subatomic particles on half the trips you take to the casinos of Ceti Alpha 6, but per mile it beats everything...

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