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An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

nytimes.com

41–50 of 51 posts

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#41
post #4

Skimming the article, it seems to me that what they need most right now is not systems for gathering more data, but systems for analyzing data they already have . Like, the iPhone thing - they didn't notice because they classified each event as one-off, so nobody looked for possible connection. I assume police stations don't exchange data with each other as much as they should either. As for the crimes going unreport…

>>a cost-effective way of solving that would be investing in solving the crimes they know about,

it also has to involve looking at what is classified as a crime. Today priorities are often tilted in the wrong direction and resources misapplied. This article has some of that in it... The Fentanyl epidemic. 30+ years of the war on drugs as proved that Drug Addiction can be be solved with the criminal system, even the most charitable understanding of the research points to laws have no effect on use or abuse, and if you look at it realistically you can find substantive arguments for criminal enforcement being directly leading to increase death not to mention other negative effects.

However there is a ocean of federal funding, external resources, Civil Forfeiture and political capital to be spent on the Drug War, Local police depts will have their budgets flush in cash to go hard on drugs.... However to go over iphone thefts, or ID Fraud, or Property Crimes, or even non-drug related violent crimes it is a cost to the local dept...

In order to police work effectively, they need incentives to redirect their resources off of drugs and on to the other crimes... We as society also need to accept that the criminal war on drugs is a failure and always will be, it needs to be a medical and social battle, not a criminal one.

The best thing we can do for crime and drug addiction, is to stop treating drugs as a crime

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#42
I wonder what share of those "unseen crimes" are victimless? Such as dealing drugs through darknet marketplaces. Decriminalizing such activities could lighten the workload, perhaps considerably.

More generally, unsolvable online crime is arguably an unavoidable cost of online privacy and freedom. Just as with encryption, having backdoors for some good guys (cops) puts other good guys (dissidents) at risk from bad guys (repressive regimes).

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#43
post #4

Skimming the article, it seems to me that what they need most right now is not systems for gathering more data, but systems for analyzing data they already have . Like, the iPhone thing - they didn't notice because they classified each event as one-off, so nobody looked for possible connection. I assume police stations don't exchange data with each other as much as they should either. As for the crimes going unreport…

What you're saying was more or less the argument in favor of the Patriot Act's expanding of domestic intelligence gathering, fwiw. And how'd it work out? Apparently not too well, if we're still seeing the same comments a decade later.

Gathering together phone theft data, and the patriot act don't seem to have much in common.

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#44
Work in a SOC as part of a well funded security org at a Fortune 50.

A company's SOC ideally isn't in the business of reporting crimes, unless they're dealing with a very serious threat actor. In that case, we may notify the feds, but we'll also notify others in our line of business, including direct competitors. Sharing intelligence will help you long term. Trying to get the feds to crack down on a criminal gang operating from eastern Europe won't do much.

Machines that are compromised are isolated, analyzed to pull out indicators of compromise and intel about the methods used, and then nuked and disposed off. There's nothing left to even turn over to a criminal investigation, let alone anyone who wants the machines to begin with.

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#45
post #42

I wonder what share of those "unseen crimes" are victimless? Such as dealing drugs through darknet marketplaces. Decriminalizing such activities could lighten the workload, perhaps considerably. More generally, unsolvable online crime is arguably an unavoidable cost of online privacy and freedom. Just as with encryption, having backdoors for some good guys (cops) puts other good guys (dissidents) at risk from bad guy…

More generally, unsolvable online crime is arguably an unavoidable cost of online privacy and freedom.

No kidding. A world with zero crime can be nothing but an authoritarian dystopia.

Just as with encryption, having backdoors for some good guys (cops) puts other good guys (dissidents) at risk from bad guys (repressive regimes).

On the other hand, encryption can also be used by companies to oppress and control their users ("walled gardens", DRM, and the like.)

Maybe the underlying philosophy here is that absolutism is never good, regardless of intention...

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#46
post #41
post #4

Skimming the article, it seems to me that what they need most right now is not systems for gathering more data, but systems for analyzing data they already have . Like, the iPhone thing - they didn't notice because they classified each event as one-off, so nobody looked for possible connection. I assume police stations don't exchange data with each other as much as they should either. As for the crimes going unreport…

>>a cost-effective way of solving that would be investing in solving the crimes they know about, it also has to involve looking at what is classified as a crime. Today priorities are often tilted in the wrong direction and resources misapplied. This article has some of that in it... The Fentanyl epidemic. 30+ years of the war on drugs as proved that Drug Addiction can be be solved with the criminal system, even the m…

I wholeheartedly agree.

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An informal and anonymous process to allow the public to arbitrarily submit people’s names to a criminal watchlist? What could go wrong?

Makes me think of the Swatting incident.

Incidents

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#48

Many, if not most, crimes go unreported offline. Is it really a shock that the same might be true online? It’s not as though police are likely to find and return your stolen property from a mugging or burglary. Above all, policing needs “better systems for gathering data,” the report said. Oooooh. Well that was predictable. Stingrays and lobbying for cryptographic backdoors not enough to do the job hm?

What's the point of reporting? We had an issue with a sysadmin. Ended up firing him but didn't revoke all his credentials in time. He logged in and deleted all our Azure servers and rm -rf'd our GCP boxes. MS wouldn't help us at all, but Google's console log showed the login from the guy's town. What're we supposed to do? He was in England and we the US. Had a similar issue with a hacker that found a way around our b…

Important lesson: when dealing with a problem sysadmin, revoke their credentials before telling them they're fired.

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#49

tech crimes are so much easier to commit than to solve, prevent, or punish that they represent a huge threat to the rule of law. in the West, crime hasn't had this kind of advantage over law enforcement since the Middle Ages. in particular, C and C++ could literally become the downfall of Western civilization.

Actually, the situation is complete opposite. Code is formal, deterministically executable rules. That's a boon for the rule of law, as the vast majority of "crimes" can be prevented a priori , rather than chased down post facto. Even C++ is miles ahead of the "legalese" that forms traditional laws. Being executable by the common person, it avoids one glaring violation of equal protection that modern legalese limps a…

This remark is barely even related to my argument, so I don't get why you made it a reply. I'm just going to rephrase the argument you ignored. If you address it, at all, I'll try to return the favor and address the points you raised too.

To secure a computer system, you have to find and patch all of its vulnerabilities, as well as distribute your patch to every node in the network. It's like what Maggie Thatcher said about terrorism. If the defender messes up even one time, the attacker wins. So the amount of effort that the attacker needs is much, much smaller than what the defender needs.

Compare that to a European country without America's easy access to guns. Crime is always cheaper than law enforcement, but in a country without ubiquitous guns, crime is somewhat cheaper than law enforcement. Online, crime is massively cheaper than law enforcement. That means that crime has a systemic advantage.

Who even hires for cybersecurity, in government? Who has the resources for it? Do local police departments compete with startups for top tech talent? Of course not.

Say you're a small town in Pennsylvania. A woman who lives in your town is being harassed by a loosely affiliated global network of anonymous misogynistic trolls. Is your police department qualified to protect her? This is a major flaw in the police department's ability to fulfill its responsibilities towards its citizenry and taxpayers, and we haven't even added black hat hackers to the equation yet.

In a hacking situation, the defender needs to coordinate an entire network, to make sure everybody's using the latest patches, while the attacker can operate solo, which eliminates organizational overhead. Yet attackers can and do share information about attack vectors. The decentralization that network technology makes possible is very favorable for attackers. Meanwhile, most of our infrastructure runs on languages that are extremely difficult to secure, even without questions of coordination.

This is a fundamental threat to the rule of law. Some of these problems can be addressed by modifying which agencies are responsible for which types of problems. But the economic aspects are fundamental. Crime is cheaper than enforcement and security by orders of magnitude. Few people are qualified to secure these systems, and many of them can make more money by penetrating them. For every brilliant hacker who moves to the US and starts another Google, there are a hundred who are stuck in Estonia, where their best bet is stealing credit card numbers or breaking into Bitcoin exchanges. The profit potential there is literally in the billions; even Silicon Valley has a hard time competing with that.

These incentives are inherently dangerous, and that is unlikely to change.

Re: An ‘Iceberg’ of Unseen Crimes: Many Cyber Offenses Go Unreported

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the situation is complete opposite. Code is formal, deterministically executable rules. That's a boon for the rule of law, as the vast majority of "crimes" can be prevented a priori , rather than chased down post facto. Even C++ is miles ahead of the "legalese" that forms traditional laws. Being executable by the common person, it avoids one glaring violation of equal protection that modern legalese limps a…

This remark is barely even related to my argument, so I don't get why you made it a reply. I'm just going to rephrase the argument you ignored. If you address it, at all, I'll try to return the favor and address the points you raised too. To secure a computer system, you have to find and patch all of its vulnerabilities, as well as distribute your patch to every node in the network. It's like what Maggie Thatcher sai…

My comment is directly related to the foundation of your argument - it's patently absurd to refer to a medium that is built entirely out of formal rules as being lawless.

The short of it is that if you take "the rule of law" to mean the ability for puppetmasters to make top-down dictats like "can't talk about Barbara Streisand", then sure, any distributed activity undermines that. Your comment is steeped in the idea of there being a singular godlike perspective, and implies having a single world jurisdiction. Aside from the impracticality, this would be a truly sorry day for humanity.

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