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People leave managers, not companies

blog.intercom.com

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Re: People leave managers, not companies

#41

Post by rich_archbold »

Hey all,

I'm the blog author, Rich Archbold from Intercom. Just to clarify …

I wrote this blog, with the exaggerated / cliched title, to try to speak to the large cohort of over-confident, under-skilled and often lacking-enough-self-awareness, managers out there. I was (and often still am) a member of this cohort. Being a great manager all the time is really hard and almost impossible IMHO.

The goal was to hopefully try and generate some more self-awareness and introspection and thus make life a little fairer, more pleasant, more growth-oriented and hopefully more successful for all concerned.

I wasn't trying to deny or downplay that people also leave their jobs for all of the other reasons highlighted by folks here.

Thanks, Rich.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#42

Post by nishantvyas »

rich_archbold wrote: post #41

Hey all, I'm the blog author, Rich Archbold from Intercom. Just to clarify … I wrote this blog, with the exaggerated / cliched title, to try to speak to the large cohort of over-confident, under-skilled and often lacking-enough-self-awareness, managers out there. I was (and often still am) a member of this cohort. Being a great manager all the time is really hard and almost impossible IMHO. The goal was to hopefully…

My take based on my experience is,

#1. People get hired for what they are good, their skills and then get promoted (to management) for same technical/IC skills not for the MGMT skills. No MGMT ramp-up. No MGMT tools. No MGMT framework. You are now tasked to lead a team. it's surely will fail.

#2. Next the mindset. Typical mindset when you move from technical (or any IC) role to MGMT and the higher you go in MGMT should completely change.... unfortunately its not so easy to give up the control. MGMT is about making others successful... giving up your control to others is very frightening and often causes identity issues... moving from do it all (as an IC) to ask_and_inspire is not easy...

#3. Assuming you overcome these two... typical problem of MGMT/leadership is they try to find, "What's the matter?" where as the focus should always be on "What matters to you (an individual/ICs in team)"

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#43

Post by crdoconnor »

Greed wrote: post #18

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager managee relationship in my experience. Whether that lack of trust manifests itself as micro-management, constant check-ins, or a constant threat of surveillance it can easily turn an above average performer into an apathetic and demoralized employee. I used to w…

IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you.

A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9am rather than 9:05am"?

Managers should form a very deep understanding of whom to trust and why or understand on a very deep level what it is that they are managing.

Managers who cannot do either of those things should be terminated with prejudice.

>You have performance metrics for a reason!

As far as developing software goes, every single performance metric is terrible.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#44

Post by yarg »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

Likewise, there probably isn't such a thing as a 10X developer, but I totally believe 10X managers exist (they provide cover, they have empathy, they are able to lead people who otherwise aren't very manageable). I've only met very few of them in my career, most managers are 1X or even negative.

I really don't like the concept of a 10X developer - it implies linear scaling.

If you keep writing very similar implementations of very similar things (without actively damaging the code-base) you may very well be an O(n) developer. You keep working at the same pace regardless.

If you are a developer of some calibar, the work that you've already done will feed back into the work that you're doing - making you an O(log(n)) developer, until the work levels out and you slip back toward o(n).

Then there's the other end of the stick, the idiot who has no business writing code, but who management keeps around because he's cheap in the short term. Everything he touches turn to shit, each change corrupts the code base just a little more, and each change to the corrupted code takes an amount of time proportional to the level of corruption. This is the O(k^n) developer, and he needs to be stopped.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#45

Post by perl4ever »

bradknowles wrote: post #17
BuckRogers wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because management is one of those fields that most people think they're qualified for. If you got arms, legs and are literate, many think they're cut out for it. Same goes for teaching or education in general. So many wannabe educators writing or producing programming lessons that clearly have never studied education theory. A notorious one or two out there as well. Art or professional grade creative endeavor…

With respect, no -- not everyone thinks that. I would be a horrible manager. And I know plenty of people who feel the same way about themselves. I am totally happy leaving that job to someone who is better suited for it.

Many people may not think they are qualified to be a manager.

However, it seems plausible to me that of the people who think they are qualified to be a manager, most are not.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#46

Post by larschdk »

Greed wrote: post #18

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager managee relationship in my experience. Whether that lack of trust manifests itself as micro-management, constant check-ins, or a constant threat of surveillance it can easily turn an above average performer into an apathetic and demoralized employee. I used to w…

A couple of articles, that I found previously here on HN address this exact self-perpetuating downward spiral of mistrust.

https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome

https://sites.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?di...

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8166701

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#47

Post by subsubsub »

crdoconnor wrote: post #43
Greed wrote: post #18

One of the issues I've had that isn't mentioned here is the value of mutual trust. Communication and trust are the two cornerstones of a really solid manager managee relationship in my experience. Whether that lack of trust manifests itself as micro-management, constant check-ins, or a constant threat of surveillance it can easily turn an above average performer into an apathetic and demoralized employee. I used to w…

IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you. A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9a…

Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric?

To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional.

As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted.

Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#48

Post by lars512 »

ravenstine wrote: post #12

It's probably easier for managers to overrate their skills and performance because the problems they cause are often not overt; if parts of their team are underperforming, the knee-jerk assessment is that "there's something wrong with Joe" rather than "there's something wrong with our process" or "there's something wrong with what I'm doing." Some of my worst experiences with management involved cases of serious micr…

> The best mangers I've known are the ones who are minimally involved. People who are given the space to make choices, be creative, and fail every so often, will often figure out how to manage themselves.

In those cases, did you feel you shared values with those managers? Or were they indifferent to your values, and just left you alone?

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#49

Post by sheepmullet »

subsubsub wrote: post #47
crdoconnor wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME this kind of experience comes when you have a manager who has no fundamental understanding of what it is that they are managing and has no particular reason to trust you. A manager who can monitor your output by reading your pull requests simply won't engage in this type of behavior whereas a manager who can't will usually instinctively gravitate to terrible metrics like "does he show dedication by being in at 9a…

Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted. Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.

> To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional.

What is on time? On time for what exactly?

Is he missing any meetings? Is he working fewer hours? Is he doing less work? Is he impacting a colleague?

Why do you consider something that has no relationship to the posters job to be a basic requirement to being a professional?

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#50

Post by gadders »

I can't help feeling that sometimes saying "People leave managers, not companies" is something senior company management tell themselves to absolve themselves of blame for staff turnover.

I could be managed by the best manager in the world, but if I'm paid 20% below market rate I'm going to leave for a better paid job.

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