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Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should be breaking up monopolies and fining companies for unfair business practices . Ultimately in a perfect world if the agencies did as their mission statements said that would work. Monopolies need to be broken up and it can lead to good things, even just threatening Microsoft in the 90s led to Google, Apple, etc emergence. The problem is there has been zero sign that anyone is willing to go after monopolies…

Google is a global monopoly with it's hands in literally everything. A significant percentage of all inter-human communication, whether voice, internet, email, or messaging goes through Google. Possibly a majority. Regional/local monopolies are barely a concern worth mention in comparison. It's as if you're worried about the street dealer, and not worried about the head of the cartel.

Check again, Google isn't the one most people are worried about.

They are worried about Comcast, Cox, AT&T and the like that own ISPs/broadband, content and control your privacy on every site you go to with the ISP privacy bill they put through, which they moved to the FTC from the FCC so they could control it better.

You don't have to go to Google, you are stuck with your ISP and the other fake competitive ISP that they create fake competitive markets with.

Your points are literally the Jeff Flake [1] points he made about allowing ISPs to take your info and sell it / run ads on it stating that it is unfair for Google/Facebook to own that. Google and Facebook earned you going to their site to get that data, ISPs lobbied to get it and you can't not go to your ISP, they run all your online access. ISPs should innovate and make products to get your information to sell ads from, not bribe their way into another monopoly while the FTC let's them do it.

FTC move for privacy essentially away from FCC was the start to dismantling net neutrality with the same arguments even though it actually created ISP monopolies more heavily because now they get ad revs, content revs, and bandwidth/access revs.

How much more power do you want to give to the ISPs? You can choose to go to Google, you cannot choose your ISP on the fly and most likely you only have one good one in your area with fake ISP competition that was a cut deal in a backroom.

FTC will not enforce net neutrality, they have been against it from the beginning and it is a regulatory captured agency that loves the ISPs.

FTC probably can't enforce net neutrality, this came from one of their commissioners [2]:

> The Federal Trade Commission will not be able to fill the gap created by the FCC’s abdication of its authority and sector-specific mandate. After-the-fact antitrust and consumer protection enforcement by the FTC cannot substitute for clear upfront rules, especially given that vertically integrated broadband ISPs have both the incentive and ability to favor their own content or that of paid “partners” over the content of rivals.

Only thing the FTC can do is after the damage fines, which will be underwhelming. Rules/law needs to stop ISPs upfront, this is why they want it away from the FCC and on the FTC. ISPs would rather win in the marketplace, get their monopolies cutting out competition, then pay a fine rather than innovating to compete. Upfront rules about net neutrality are needed to help create the next Google/Apple/Netflix/Facebook that would be crushed without it.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/settling-a-bureaucratic-turf-wa...

[2] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements...

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#42
This is an unpopular opinion, but the disagreement point is trying to use the FCC to enforce Net Neutrality, not Net Neutrality itself. Since everyone has decided to stop talking about the end goal (an open internet) and instead insisting "my way or the highway", we've gotten ourselves to this point. Thank you for your downvotes. I'd rather talk about working together towards an end goal and finding similarities instead of differences.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#43

Am I the only person who thinks this whole approach to Net Neutrality is wrongly pursued through the FCC? Hear me out: if the networks don't access a physically limited resource like the RF spectrum and there isn't any censorship issue at stake, if the issue is truly differential access and usage due to oligopolistic limitation, isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restrai…

This is the problem that a lot of people have with the FCC regulatory approach, specifically abusing Article 2 of the 1996 communications act.

Net neutrality is essential for the internet to continue to thrive and flourish as it has done since 1996. But using Article 2 for that purpose is like using a sledgehammer on a finishing nail.

Article 2 was aimed at the true AT&T telecom behemoths of the world. But it is not the job of any federal agency to dictate what its own job is to Congress, i.e. in this case the FCC deciding it wants different public policy from what its charter statutes support. Congress sets public policy and determines how much leeway it will delegate to the agencies and the President. Federal agencies (of any stripe) arrogating power unto themselves is undemocratic, even if well-intentioned.

So the problem is that Congress has failed to act to block the new abusive behaviors of the ISPs, and we need Congress to write new laws. Personally I think that if sufficient leeway were granted to encourage local competition, all of this and a bunch of other abuses (exhibit A: Comcast customer support) would vanish in a puff of smoke.

Side note, I happily donate every month to the EFF, but I believe they are misguided in their support for lawsuits like those announced today.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#44

Am I the only person who thinks this whole approach to Net Neutrality is wrongly pursued through the FCC? Hear me out: if the networks don't access a physically limited resource like the RF spectrum and there isn't any censorship issue at stake, if the issue is truly differential access and usage due to oligopolistic limitation, isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restrai…

This can only be fixed by the FTC, yes. But it's against Google's interests for antitrust law to come back into vogue, so they've put a lot of money into getting folks on board with the FCC, which doesn't have jurisdiction over Google, being in charge. In fact, the Title II classification that net neutrality supporters are so big on actually exempts ISPs from FTC regulation, preventing the government from breaking up…

there's a lot of practical uses for more limited types of Internet plans being available in world of IoT, especially

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#45
post #22

So, legally speaking, does Mozilla have any ground to stand on here? I'm having trouble imagining what law might exist that would legally require the FCC to enforce NN rules. Especially given the rules the FCC overturned here were originally instituted only 3 years ago. Could Mozilla have successfully sued the FCC back then if they'd failed to create these rules in the first place?

I would like to read the suit, because I don't think they have a leg to stand on. If the FCC can make the regulations, they can rescind them. The only thing maybe is process, but that only delays the inevitable.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure there are many people working at Facebook, Google and Apple who also genuinely care about freedom and privacy, while there are developers working at Mozilla who are just as willing to sell out users as anyone. It is true that Mozilla’s a nonprofit, but that doesn’t mean a lot to me when I try to guess what they’ll do in the future.

I think his point was that instead of throwing your hands up in the air and declaring all options to be equally terrible, it might be better to support actors that are generally good.

The original comment seemed to be “sure, some people working for Mozilla are bad, but some are good, and some people working for their competitors are also bad.”

My points were (1) the statement didn’t actually say anything interesting because it only talked about some of the people working at each company (i.e., it was just as true if you switched the company names around), (2) all companies are made up of people, so it’s hardly a surprise that some of those people have admirable motives and others don’t, and (3) “nonprofit” doesn’t necessarily mean “good,” or “pure in heart,” or whatever people seem to think it does.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#48
post #8

Why is the EFF not doing this instead of Mozilla ? Also I hope people still pursue municipal broadband, even with NN relying on faceless corporations seems like a bad idea.

They are an advocacy group, "filing lawsuits" isn't really what they do. They don't provide a product that they can claim is damaged by this, while Mozilla does.

Here's the past cases they've been involved with, none of them filed by the EFF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_litigation_involving_t...

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#49

Am I the only person who thinks this whole approach to Net Neutrality is wrongly pursued through the FCC? Hear me out: if the networks don't access a physically limited resource like the RF spectrum and there isn't any censorship issue at stake, if the issue is truly differential access and usage due to oligopolistic limitation, isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restrai…

> ..isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restraint of trade doctrine Assuming the FTC isn't a regulatory capture agency, it is. FTC does very little here, it was in the FTC before 2015 it went Title II and the FCC. The FTC also can't make it a utility, the FCC can via Title II, thus the reason it ended up there from the FTC in 2015. FTC was fighting against net neutrality…

> The FTC is also a largely controlled agency by one party, I'll let you guess which one.

The democrats probably since the agency does really fit their censorship approach they have started to take on since the 2016 election.

Re: Mozilla Files Suit Against FCC to Protect Net Neutrality

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ..isn't it for the FTC to intervene and bust up throttling and content blocks under restraint of trade doctrine Assuming the FTC isn't a regulatory capture agency, it is. FTC does very little here, it was in the FTC before 2015 it went Title II and the FCC. The FTC also can't make it a utility, the FCC can via Title II, thus the reason it ended up there from the FTC in 2015. FTC was fighting against net neutrality…

> The FTC is also a largely controlled agency by one party, I'll let you guess which one. The democrats probably since the agency does really fit their censorship approach they have started to take on since the 2016 election.

> The democrats probably

Democrats largely want to keep net neutrality under FCC, Republicans want it under FTC.

The FTC Chairman is Republican Maureen K. Ohlhausen that went to Antonin Scalia Law School.

> fit their censorship approach they have started to take on since the 2016 election

Net neutrality has nothing to do with censorship, though censorship it is usually always bad. If you remember, Republicans used the FCC after the Janet Jackson Superbowl exposure event.

The right does want to make NN about censorship for some reason which I do not understand how equal access to every packet is censorship. Without net neutrality there will be more censorship because you'll only see what Comcast/Disney wants you to see. They want the right to inspect packets and slow down certain packets, this will lead to other bad surveillance encroachments as well without NN.

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