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Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

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Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#41

Post by mar77i »

interfixus wrote: post #11
superkuh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no better time than now (Meltdown/Spectre) to switch to whitelist only JS (NoScript works). The menu/ads completely fail to display but the text is just fine.

Nope. My personal preference is uMatrix, but that's an implementation detail. I rarely see an ad, and I didn't see any on this page. Also, I have more or less tuned out Facebook and similar sleaze, and I try to maintain some vigilance concerning anything which begins to unduly attract my attention. And then I have to wonder: Am I living in a cleanroom? Am I letting my defenses rot? Am I setting myself up for a fall i…

I'm pretty sure you let your defenses against invasive advertising rot if you live in your adblocker bubble. You know, pathogens and immune systems and such...

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#42

Post by mch82 »

Retric wrote: post #40
dahart wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

My sister works for Disney and I am polite about, but I still place Disney on the same tier as Backwater(Academi) in terms of evil. If you are an Animator I get it they treat you well and it's a small industry. However, objectively they cause an immense amount of direct and indirect harm.

For what reasons?

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#43

Post by KingPrad »

belorn wrote: post #33
dahart wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

It is obviously clear that not everyone who works at Disney supported the idea to take works of art and culture from the public and retroactively put them back under copyright, nor the idea that lobbying from such organizations should have such enormous power in dictating policy in a democratic country where a democratic vote would had gone in an other direction. Cory Doctorow has dedicated a large part of his life (…

That's a good point about long past experience shading future interactions, but I don't feel it exempts from harsh judgment. The ability to consider individuals separately from some of their membership groups is a core skill of being a mature adult.

If Doctorow doesn't have the mental "executive control" we expect of adults, we need to be aware of it. This includes being ready to defend people he insults and to give him less opportunity for it.

The grandparent poster might actually be doing the hard labor of doing good within Disney, as are thousands of others. I contrast that with how easy it is to stand outside the castle (almost literally in Disney's sense) and throw stones at the walls. If GP is someone working for good within a bad organization (aren't a lot of us?) then I have respect for them. That is really hard, wearing work.

Anyway, on the sliding scale of judgement and forgiveness, just stating that I judge Doctorow more harshly than you and am less forgiving of his attacking a person for the behavior of one group they happen to be a member of.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#44

Post by Retric »

mch82 wrote: post #42
Retric wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister works for Disney and I am polite about, but I still place Disney on the same tier as Backwater(Academi) in terms of evil. If you are an Animator I get it they treat you well and it's a small industry. However, objectively they cause an immense amount of direct and indirect harm.

For what reasons?

Sidestepping issue of copyright and corporate greed which is the usual HN complaint.

Disney promotes a harmful world view and perpetuates unreasonable expectations. It hooks into the same sort of cognitive dissonance that religions do, but by targeting young people it can propagate views without the need to be consistent with the real world. Now personally I elevate that harm because they are specificity targeting children.

Try reading the original Peter pan / Alice in wonderland etc etc and consider what about these stories are changed and for what reasons.

PS: It's also rather insidious, look at what older generations thought of childhood and compare it to today. If you dig into things like divorce rates it's not really specifically their fault, but myth really does inform people about human nature and prepare them for dealing with other people.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#45

Post by bsder »

dahart wrote: post #32
freedomben wrote: post #2

Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say. While this particular blog post isn't about DRM, his work is benefiting everyone (except those who would rather enrich themselves at the expense of humanity). It's probably bigger than you think. I highly recommend reading up on what Cory has to say on DRM and the war on general purpose computing. It may change your mind. http://www.zdnet.com/article/cory-doctorow-s…

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

> He took one look at my badge that said "Disney" and started hurling sarcastic insults at me about my employer and suggesting my character was tarnished for working for them.

So, you waved a red flag in front of a bull and got gored. Um ...

I'm sorry he was a jerk to you, but, by the same token, waving "Disney" in front of him is kind of asking for it. A fan would know this.

I mean, if you were a fan of Morrissey and were eating a hamburger or similar in front of him in a fan line, you're going to have a similar bad time.

Many of these people have strong opinions and they aren't particularly quiet about them. If you trip one, you're going to get flamed.

Maybe it's not right or fair, but it's who they are and they are not exactly secretive about their hot buttons.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#46

Post by pavedwalden »

dahart wrote: post #32
freedomben wrote: post #2

Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say. While this particular blog post isn't about DRM, his work is benefiting everyone (except those who would rather enrich themselves at the expense of humanity). It's probably bigger than you think. I highly recommend reading up on what Cory has to say on DRM and the war on general purpose computing. It may change your mind. http://www.zdnet.com/article/cory-doctorow-s…

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

If someone worked for Halliburton, even just as a secretary, I'd link less of them and might let them know it. Given Disney's influence on copyright law, I could see Doctorow putting all Disney employees in the 'enemy' column. But since he gives himself permission to be a total Disneyworld fanboy and give them money every visit, then he's in no position to be telling off anyone else who does business with them.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#47

Post by elialbert »

dahart wrote: post #32
freedomben wrote: post #2

Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say. While this particular blog post isn't about DRM, his work is benefiting everyone (except those who would rather enrich themselves at the expense of humanity). It's probably bigger than you think. I highly recommend reading up on what Cory has to say on DRM and the war on general purpose computing. It may change your mind. http://www.zdnet.com/article/cory-doctorow-s…

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

my funny meeting cory story: ran into him after a lecture and fanboyishly told him I'd been reading boingboing half my life (~15 years) - he freaked out, muttered something like "I'm not that old!" shook my hand and ran away.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#48

Post by dahart »

Retric wrote: post #40
dahart wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

My sister works for Disney and I am polite about, but I still place Disney on the same tier as Backwater(Academi) in terms of evil. If you are an Animator I get it they treat you well and it's a small industry. However, objectively they cause an immense amount of direct and indirect harm.

My feelings about Cory aren't because he insulted Disney, I already knew how he felt about Disney. My feelings are personal. He insulted me without knowing anything about me. He assumed that I was colluding rather than working to fix anything from the inside. He was rude to me personally before I said a word to him. He insulted me while I was holding a copy of his book that I had just paid for, while I was spending my own time waiting in line to get the chance to talk to him. How ungrateful and unprofessional can someone get?

He is selling his writing. I do wonder how hard he'd stick to his copyright guns if nobody ever paid him for his ideas, and everybody copied them instead.

I have all my own reasons to not trust Disney, BTW, above and beyond their historical copyright violations or whatever. They shut down our research group on a whim during a management turnover because they couldn't see in Excel whether it was profitable. They closed the game studio I was working at on very little notice after making a billion dollars on the product we created, after years of overtime. I had left already and was unaffected, but a couple hundred people were suddenly trying to figure out how to feed their families.

That said, they also paid me relatively well, and I fed my family and worked on some fun projects. My family and extended family and friends all enjoyed free trips to Disneyland. As a parent, I do appreciate being able to trust Disney content around my kids.

Given that they are a global economic engine that supports millions of people, I can have my beefs, but it's hard to say that it's all bad. "Evil" is a black and white narrative that, ironically, is the kind of thinking that Disney has encouraged. These companies are made of people, almost all of whom are good and just trying to get by.

All large corporations are doing things that are not in the public interest. Calling out specific ones and claiming they're much worse than others is to misunderstand our economic system. Capitalism is the root cause of the immense amount of direct and indrect harm, at the same time it's the cause of an immense amount of wealth and economic stability.

In any case, even if some companies are bad, it's lame to be rude to strangers face to face.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#49

Post by dahart »

bsder wrote: post #45
dahart wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Always interested in what Cory Doctorow has to say I used to be, then I met him in person. I loved reading his stuff on BoingBoing. I caught him at a book signing at Siggraph in Vancouver one year. I bought his book, and waited in line, excited to talk to him. I asked him what I thought was an interesting question about the difference between print and digital copyrights, and how the laws should change for digital.…

> He took one look at my badge that said "Disney" and started hurling sarcastic insults at me about my employer and suggesting my character was tarnished for working for them. So, you waved a red flag in front of a bull and got gored. Um ... I'm sorry he was a jerk to you, but, by the same token, waving "Disney" in front of him is kind of asking for it. A fan would know this. I mean, if you were a fan of Morrissey an…

I walked up to Cory thinking I was on his team, and hoping to share a moment with him talking about the things our team cares about. Before talking to me at all, before knowing who I was or why I was there buying his book and waiting to talk to him, his reaction to seeing my employer was to tell me I wasn't on his team, and that furthermore I was in the wrong by default. When someone is that unwelcoming and antagonistic to fans, I can't help but not want to be on his team anymore.

> So, you waved a red flag in front of a bull and got gored.

I did nothing of the sort, I hadn't even given my employer a thought at all before approaching Cory. I happened to be wearing a conference badge, which I didn't show him, he went out of his way to stop and read it. I also happened to be a fan of Cory's at the time. I was aware of how he felt about Disney, and even shared some of his beliefs (about Disney) at the time. I was holding a copy of his book that he watched me pay for. So no, I did not goad him, nor expect him to treat me poorly.

> Maybe it's not right or fair, but it's who they are and they are not exactly secretive about their hot buttons.

You seem to be suggesting that it's expected and maybe even okay to be mean to people in social situations face to face, based on one's dogmatic beliefs. As long as you're right, or just believe you're right, it's okay to slam other people who you suspect have different beliefs than you, even if your evidence is only by association and you haven't checked directly with them?

Re: Cory Doctorow: Persuasion, Adaptation, and the Arms Race for Your Attention

#50

Post by Buldak »

Retric wrote: post #44
mch82 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what reasons?

Sidestepping issue of copyright and corporate greed which is the usual HN complaint. Disney promotes a harmful world view and perpetuates unreasonable expectations. It hooks into the same sort of cognitive dissonance that religions do, but by targeting young people it can propagate views without the need to be consistent with the real world. Now personally I elevate that harm because they are specificity targeting ch…

>Disney promotes a harmful world view

What worldview is that?

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