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The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

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Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#41

Post by infinity0 »

probably_wrong wrote: post #40
infinity0 wrote: post #14

I always felt that the fact that the tech industry is so welcome to techies and people with "aspie"-type personalities, indicates that in fact we as an industry have more empathy than other industries (or social groups) that shun these types of people (myself included) for what I believe are very superficial reasons. So, I think the title of the article is extremely biased and draws the wrong conclusions from the wri…

I'll have to disagree with your conclusion. If a group is composed mostly of members of a shunned social group, do they have more empathy than others just because they are friendlier to members of that specific shunned social group? I am immensely grateful for the nerd-friendliness of the tech industry, as I spent my teen years being mocked for being a nerd. But if the tech industry has a higher-than-average number o…

I never said techies have "more empathy". I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of media attack-pieces blasting techies for having "less empathy", something that is entirely at odds with my own experience.

edit: apparently I did say that. It was in reaction to an inflammatory title I feel is deeply wrong.

People, including the writers of articles like "techies aren't empathetic", like to talk about virtues like "empathy" and apply them positively or negatively to groups they feel part of / outside of. Much of the time, it has nothing to do with the actual virtue, but with this tribalistic instinct of being part of or outside of different groups.

Pretending the discussion is about "empathy" is really doing a disservice to analysis of social groups. Some less-systematic people are annoyed that more-systematic people do better within the tech industry, which in today's world is becoming more and more important for economic success. So they want to explain this away as "more-systematic people are less empathetic". What is actually the case, is "more-systematic people are less empathetic to less-systematic behaviour". But we're plenty-empathetic to people that "get us". And in the other direction, people that this author assumes are "more empathetic" are actually really really extremely non-empathetic to more-systematic people.

edit: assumed the article was another "techies are less empathetic" hit-job, but turns out it is making a different point from all the rest

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#42

Post by bobthechef »

swombat wrote: post #28
nukeop wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these kinds of antagonisms are central to American society. Other parts of the world often find them alien and incomprehensible.

Not true - the Karpman drama triangle (victim-aggressor-rescuer) is a fundamentally human way of seeing the world (however dysfunctional and unhelpful) and so it is present all around the world, not just in the US. I would agree that based on what I read about it, the US seems to be particularly in the grip of this perspective though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

I think what seanhandley meant was that the current obsessions and the particular form they take in the US is highly particular to the US and it is a mistake (often made by Americans and those in the Anglo-American sphere) to universalize and project this American phenomenon outward instead of understanding it as something bizarrely and uniquely American.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#43

Post by rectang »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #4

> He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts, including politicised work environments. Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is t…

> I really believe that culture plays more of a part than most people think.

Cultural and structural factors swamp genetic factors. At the extreme, you have state-sanctioned systems of discrimination such as apartheid, where people who belong to certain groups are legally impeded from fulfilling their potential. Remove the legal underpinnings and it's not like things are solved all of a sudden -- pervasive, virulent discrimination by the in-group still plays a decisive role. Even as overt discrimination softens, historical factors such as accumulated wealth continue to tilt the playing field.

When do structural factors cease to dominate? That's a never-ending argument. At every point during the evolution of society, there will be people who argue that the status quo is just.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#44

Post by kazinator »

swombat wrote: post #28
nukeop wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these kinds of antagonisms are central to American society. Other parts of the world often find them alien and incomprehensible.

Not true - the Karpman drama triangle (victim-aggressor-rescuer) is a fundamentally human way of seeing the world (however dysfunctional and unhelpful) and so it is present all around the world, not just in the US. I would agree that based on what I read about it, the US seems to be particularly in the grip of this perspective though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Not fundamentally human! Animals can recognize aggression and intervene in favor of the perceived victim.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#45

Post by kazinator »

danieltillett wrote: post #20
seanhandley wrote: post #10

> Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. I cannot agree with this more. Very, very well ob…

We really have to stop seeing people as members of a group first and an individual second. It is lazy thinking.

Survival on planet Earth has critically depended on lazy thinking: generalizing from incomplete scraps of information, and acting in real-time.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#46

Post by blablabla123 »

watwut wrote: post #21

Majority of people in tech are not autistic stereotype. The actually autistic were definitely not among the best I have worked with.

Yeah I also observed that most people in tech seem to be kind of "statistically normal". However seeing myself more on the spectrum side and also being perceived as that, I noticed workplaces preferring me and similar people to rather work alone. It matches very much the traditional stereotype of putting the programmers in the cellar, not sure if that makes the workplaces more sociable - probably not.

There's in my opinion a lot wrong in tech but I think one cannot say that it's the fault of a certain group. It's rather the habits and "traditions" of the people working in the tech industry that need an upgrade.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#47

Post by pgeorgi »

tajen wrote: post #39
pgeorgi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is if other societies also adopt the triangle for classes of people in the way the American society does. Not all countries have "affirmative action" laws, which essentially codify victimhood large scale - and also beg the question in which other bucket everybody else belongs. Add an intuitive and statist interpretation of the drama triangle (instead of acknowledging that the same persons can be in diffe…

I have extensively studied the statistics about neoteny (=compassion gap) in USA vs Europe and they are very close to each other. If you’re talking about the position of women in the Taliban culture, this is a very interesting talk, despite the title: https://youtu.be/5eqYEVYZgdo

I wasn't talking about compassion (which may differ in shape but not volume) or Taliban culture (that I know little about, nor am particularly interested in).

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#48

Post by danieltillett »

kazinator wrote: post #45
danieltillett wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really have to stop seeing people as members of a group first and an individual second. It is lazy thinking.

Survival on planet Earth has critically depended on lazy thinking: generalizing from incomplete scraps of information, and acting in real-time.

Maybe I am just being an old-timer grouch, but it seems to be getting worse. As people attention is diverted from one topic to another with increasing speed, avoiding lazy thinking gets harder and harder. We do still need to fight against it :)

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#49

Post by bobthechef »

watwut wrote: post #29
namenotrequired wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ask everyone you worked with if they were autistic, or is this based on gut feeling?

They did not displayed syptomps. They were able to to correctly guess other peoples emotions or imagine themselves in their situation. They did not had single minded obsession nor routines that must happen. You could negotiate with them easily. They were, otherwise said, normal. Of course I might have missed some very mild case or something. And of course opposite, determining whether someone who kind of have some sy…

I think the correct way to understand autistic people vis-a-vis the industry is not by placing such people up on a pedestal as "special", but that tech is an environment where people with social deficits (whether related to autism or simply a lack of social skills) are more likely to survive career-wise precisely because they skills they lack are not needed and are not a selection criteria that words against their survival.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#50

Post by digi_owl »

bobthechef wrote: post #42
swombat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true - the Karpman drama triangle (victim-aggressor-rescuer) is a fundamentally human way of seeing the world (however dysfunctional and unhelpful) and so it is present all around the world, not just in the US. I would agree that based on what I read about it, the US seems to be particularly in the grip of this perspective though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

I think what seanhandley meant was that the current obsessions and the particular form they take in the US is highly particular to the US and it is a mistake (often made by Americans and those in the Anglo-American sphere) to universalize and project this American phenomenon outward instead of understanding it as something bizarrely and uniquely American.

More worryingly, it seems that the "anglo" media is expert at exporting their world view to the rest of the world given time.
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