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Consciousness: Where Are Words?

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Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#41

Post by mannykannot »

EGreg wrote: post #35
guuz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crabs are self conscious too because they act with a purpose of self preservation, which requires knowledge of what is them and what is not them. It's a bit more complicated. Self consciousness is the ability to contemplate mental states, some philosophers say. Crabs do not contemplate their own mental states, they simply act and feel.

Ok well there you go. I was basing it on your earlier definition. So define the word contemplate . But do you see how defining things and using the subject and object makes it hard to ask any of the major questions?

Guuz's comment does not change the earlier definition (regardless of who stated it.) What it does do is point out a flaw in your argument from that definition to your claim that crabs are self-conscious.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#42

Post by EGreg »

mannykannot wrote: post #40
EGreg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitions matter. The guy updated his, to exclude your sprinkler example.

It seems, from the other thread, that there was no change in an original definition, but it would be moot anyway, as the sprinkler example follows the reasoning of your claim that a crab is self-conscious, which in turn follows from the confusion, over the difference between being a thing and knowing that one is that thing, in this paragraph: " Know you are that thing - every thing is itself, if it has well defined b…

Well I was tacitly pointing out the inadequacy of that definition for the term, while running with it.

Anyway my original point stands :)

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#43

Post by mannykannot »

EGreg wrote: post #42
mannykannot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems, from the other thread, that there was no change in an original definition, but it would be moot anyway, as the sprinkler example follows the reasoning of your claim that a crab is self-conscious, which in turn follows from the confusion, over the difference between being a thing and knowing that one is that thing, in this paragraph: " Know you are that thing - every thing is itself, if it has well defined b…

Well I was tacitly pointing out the inadequacy of that definition for the term, while running with it. Anyway my original point stands :)

But you did not point out the inadequacy of the definition of the term, tacitly or otherwise; instead, you demonstrated the flaws in your own distortions of that definition. Consequently, it seems unlikely that there is a validation of your original point (whatever that was) somewhere in there.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#44

Post by EGreg »

mannykannot wrote: post #43
EGreg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I was tacitly pointing out the inadequacy of that definition for the term, while running with it. Anyway my original point stands :)

But you did not point out the inadequacy of the definition of the term, tacitly or otherwise; instead, you demonstrated the flaws in your own distortions of that definition. Consequently, it seems unlikely that there is a validation of your original point (whatever that was) somewhere in there.

I clearly disagree.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#45

Post by EGreg »

mannykannot wrote: post #41
EGreg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok well there you go. I was basing it on your earlier definition. So define the word contemplate . But do you see how defining things and using the subject and object makes it hard to ask any of the major questions?

Guuz's comment does not change the earlier definition (regardless of who stated it.) What it does do is point out a flaw in your argument from that definition to your claim that crabs are self-conscious.

what is it like to be something which experiences and know you are that thing.

According to this definition, crabs are self conscious.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#46

Post by mannykannot »

EGreg wrote: post #44
mannykannot wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you did not point out the inadequacy of the definition of the term, tacitly or otherwise; instead, you demonstrated the flaws in your own distortions of that definition. Consequently, it seems unlikely that there is a validation of your original point (whatever that was) somewhere in there.

I clearly disagree.

The clarity of your disagreement has not extended as far as a response to the counter-argument that is implicit in my original post in this thread. The final step in your argument that jjaredsimpson's definition of self-consciousness leads to the conclusion that crabs are self-conscious is this:

'Crabs are self conscious too because they act with a purpose of self preservation, which requires knowledge of what is them and what is not them.'

I pointed out that this works equally well for the claim that buildings with sprinkler systems are self-conscious, a conclusion that you have tacitly agreed is ridiculous. There's no difficulty in seeing what flaw in reasoning led to this conclusion: it is in the claim '[self preservation] requires knowledge of what is them and what is not them', where, in fact, all it needs is a suitable response to a stimulus that may signal an existential threat. This claim is not in jjaredsimpson's definition of self-consciousness; it is an independent axiom that you inserted into the discussion.

If your original point is that any discussion can be stalled by the injection of bogus arguments over the definitions of words, then I would have to agree that you have proven it by example.

Re: Consciousness: Where Are Words?

#47

Post by mannykannot »

EGreg wrote: post #45
mannykannot wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guuz's comment does not change the earlier definition (regardless of who stated it.) What it does do is point out a flaw in your argument from that definition to your claim that crabs are self-conscious.

what is it like to be something which experiences and know you are that thing. According to this definition, crabs are self conscious.

As this is one of several places where you have asserted the same claim, one response is sufficient: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16041077
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