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Telegram Isn't for Sale

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Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#41

Post by pfortuny »

maelito wrote: post #30
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Here in France, lots of people don't do the difference between the taxes that go to the government, and the social security deductions. Calling the latter "taxes" is wrong. Most of it pays for your retirement and your health problems.

As long as it is compulsory, it is a tax. Whether it goes to your health problems or your street is irrelevant. If you have no control over the money, it is a tax.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#42

Post by Terr_ »

eps wrote: post #35
baybal2 wrote: post #9

FIY: While they claim being hounded back in Russia, and that they will be instantaneously jumped upon by 3 letter services if they were to run there, they were proven to have a huge office there as well as their main server infrastructure. Another red flag, is that they were never blocked in Russia. They look suspicious.

Got a source for the first claim? Second would've been a red flag if the Russian gvmnt would've been routinely blocking other chat systems.

The first claim? The "hounded by Russia" one? I'm not familiar with the story, but some quick searching reveals this:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/16/telegram-fined-by-russia...

The prime source seems to be founder Durov's social-media posts, retelling his communications to/from regulators.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#43

Post by Quarrelsome »

IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

> ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government.

Considering he grew up under the USSR, Yeltsin and then Putin I don't really find that surprising. Perhaps he'd have a different point of view if he came from a society where he wasn't forced to sell his social network.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#44

Post by thisisit »

askafriend wrote: post #5
thisisit wrote: post #4

>He sees Telegram as a charity that he’ll start to monetize early next year, but only enough to fund expansion. Charity and monetization don't go hand in hand.

Almost all charity orgs have operational expenses...

Operational expenses. Sure. But I am taking the situation into consideration. And I am not denying the fact that Durov needs to make money, eventually, to cover expenses.

The problem is on the word monetize. It seems like the idea might be to sell ads which will eventually require some form of personalization even though it is not explicitly sold. Just like what happened with whatsapp. It is free but we saw what was tried with FB integration.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#45

Post by germanier »

SyneRyder wrote: post #40
krrrh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.

There's also the compulsory 9% Church Tax in Germany, unless you formally renounce your religion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/113... Notably: "The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members."

It's 8-9% of your income tax – so in reality maybe 2% of your income or less.

This tax is levied by the churches. You may be against the fact that they get this right because you support a more strict separation of church and state (which is not in the spirit of the German constitution) but this is hardly something the state is to blame for.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#46

Post by zaarn »

SyneRyder wrote: post #40
krrrh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not counting VAT which is 19% of most of what you purchase. Corporate tax is largely bundled into consumer prices as well, and depending on your consumption patterns, and transportations choices there are other taxes that apply. In no way is this list exhaustive.

There's also the compulsory 9% Church Tax in Germany, unless you formally renounce your religion: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/113... Notably: "The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members."

Formally renouncing your religion is easy and can be done fairly quickly, I've done it.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#47

Post by throwaway13337 »

mrwong wrote: post #12
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Just because he advocates for lower taxes doesn’t mean he want anarchy.

There's also the most hidden tax of all: inflation.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#48

Post by adrianN »

ekianjo wrote: post #26
IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

> ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. Nice Strawman. So complaining about high taxes means you are either for or against having a government?

It does sound like he is against all taxes. Without taxes it's hard to have anything that you'd recognize as a government.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#49

Post by itsybitsyspider »

IBalic wrote: post #8

> A lot of people in the western world don’t realize how much taxes limit their options. You can end up paying almost half your income in taxes, which basically means you’re working for the government for 180 days a year. I think I can find better ways to use the money I make for the benefit of society. ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government. I respect different stands on the size/role of the gover…

> ok, so he's basically suggesting to get of rid government

No, he's not suggesting anything like that. Working 180 days a year for the government in not ok. He merely points that out.

Re: Telegram Isn't for Sale

#50

Post by zaarn »

GeneralTspoon wrote: post #28
_s wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax burden in Germany for middleclass is at around 70%. Beeing a software engineer in germany means that you code 8months for the government and 4months for yourself. > The western governments introduced more and more “hidden” taxes. So just looking at income tax is not fair. Please don't pluck figures like that out of thin air - I worked in Berlin as a developer and I easily took home ~60% of my monthly salary (pl…

I imagine that he/she is also including VAT in that 70% figure (which I believe is currently 23% in Germany). In Munich my taxes on my pay check were around 45% as a software dev (including pension & insurance). So 70% total tax might not be far off the mark (assuming that you spend most of your income on VAT goods & services). Although you have to remember it's not 23% of your totoal income, but 23% of the remaining…

It's 19% for most stuff and 7% for some other stuff, on average it's closer to 16 o 17% on everything you buy and pay.

Once you account for the 17% being part of your remaining money, you get an effective incoming VAT tax rate of 8.5% (assuming you keep around 50%, if you keep more, this goes up)

I believe the highest amount of income tax you pay is around 60%, plus 8.5% you get close to 70%. However, most people will pay closer to 45 and 50% tax or less so a more realistic figure is 50% to 60% income tax.

It should probably also be included when you get benefits from things paid for in part by this, ie your insurances and pensions and such.

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