Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey • Hacker News Board

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#41

Post by michael_dorfman » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 3:11 PM UTC

chanakya wrote: post #20

I have to say I'm very surprised at how few people here seem to have liked the book. Going by my experience, I would have expected that HN readers would have thoroughly enjoyed it. I first read it about 25 years ago, and while I didn't understand much of its philosophical arguments, I remember the experience as a sheer delight. Since then, i've read it at least twice more, and enjoyed it every time ( and understood i…

As Shakespeare says, "the readiness is all." It's one of those books that needs to find you at the right moment-- if you are not ready for it, some of it can seem like an odd mix of nonsense and hard work. If, on the other hand, you come to it after an advanced education in many of the topics, you might find it slight.

I re-read it, and Metamagical Themas a couple years ago, and was pleased to find how well it held up after all these years. Some books that are mind-opening when we read them as teenagers seem awfully thin decades later (yes, I'm looking at you, Robert Pirsig.)

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#42

Post by slackito » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 4:16 PM UTC

bingaman wrote: post #7

alain94040 wrote: post #4

This is a great book. That being said, why is this on HN? The link is from 2007. The book is even older.

Yes, it's from 2007, but it doesn't seem dated and definitely would be of interest to readers of HN. As far as I know there is no preference for 'new' material here - in fact tried and true is preferred! And if it's a double, it's worthwhile just for the mp4 link above. I wanted to do this but .rm - no.

Seems to work OK on VLC, no RealPlayer needed :)

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#43

Post by jerf » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 5:36 PM UTC

presidentender wrote: post #26

jerf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a combination of two things: An extended musing on the nature of Godel's Incompleteness theorem, including its practical and philosophical consequences, and a series of things as jacoblyles explains in his comment. It's an arty/fun book, I don't think it's bad, but the "mystery" you perceive at the heart of it is simply Godel's theorem, which, to be fair, like many other aspects of computer science does indeed h…

I get Goedel's theorem, I'd like to think. I get strange loops, and how Hofstadter would have a field day with our criticism of xkcd and of xkcd's critics. I just know there's still more.

Is there more? Well, yes. I did just try to summarize the book in about 20 words.

Are you about 90% of the way through? Yes. The book is written in a style to make it have the trappings of more depth than it actually has. I actually enjoy it that way and do not mean it as a criticism. (I also enjoyed the Illuminatus! trilogy, which is self-consciously written with somewhat similar motives.) Don't undersell yourself.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#44

Post by scrame » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 6:09 PM UTC

chanakya wrote: post #20

I have to say I'm very surprised at how few people here seem to have liked the book. Going by my experience, I would have expected that HN readers would have thoroughly enjoyed it. I first read it about 25 years ago, and while I didn't understand much of its philosophical arguments, I remember the experience as a sheer delight. Since then, i've read it at least twice more, and enjoyed it every time ( and understood i…

Same here, I've ended up buying the book about 4 times now, from random mishaps or just giving my current copy to a friend. I've tried at times to get almost everyone I know to read it, regardless of their backgrounds (usually not math/science types) and always like seeing people go a little crazy just thinking through it or trying to explain it to other people.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#45

Post by scrame » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 6:36 PM UTC

Gödel, Escher, Bach is one of the most beautifully bizarre, transcendent creations I have ever come across. I wish every computer programmer that I ever heard say something silly like "I don't like art", or "I don't read that much" could be exposed to it. There is nothing so humbling as getting your ass kicked by 800 pages of a guy trying to explain an idea in the simplest terms he can.

The only things that I can compare it to are more literary, but "Breakfast of Champions", "Foucalts Pendulum" or "Infinite Jest", aren't out of order.

They are all products of brilliant, obsessive, minds making a concerted effort to explain what they can see above the clouds.

As much intellectual ego that gets bandied about between computer programmers, its nice to keep a humbling base where you can actually see that no matter how smart you think you are, that there are people who are way way way smarter than you and actually have the dedication, skill and expertise to try to help you understand what they have spent their life learning.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#46

Post by baddox » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 6:46 PM UTC

chanakya wrote: post #20

I have to say I'm very surprised at how few people here seem to have liked the book. Going by my experience, I would have expected that HN readers would have thoroughly enjoyed it. I first read it about 25 years ago, and while I didn't understand much of its philosophical arguments, I remember the experience as a sheer delight. Since then, i've read it at least twice more, and enjoyed it every time ( and understood i…

I agree with his argument for strong AI. However, I find his argument for its possibility pretty unsatisfying. He basically just says that since humans are incomplete (like any formal system), we should be able to simulate it in hardware or software. I do believe that, but I don't find it very persuasive. What if our minds are such a tangled hierarchy that our own minds can't ever untangle it? I don't think that's true, but I tend to cringe when he expresses such optimism, optimism which is still largely unrealized after 30 years of AI winter.

That said, I absolutely love the book.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#47

Post by kevbin » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 6:47 PM UTC

chanakya wrote: post #20

I have to say I'm very surprised at how few people here seem to have liked the book. Going by my experience, I would have expected that HN readers would have thoroughly enjoyed it. I first read it about 25 years ago, and while I didn't understand much of its philosophical arguments, I remember the experience as a sheer delight. Since then, i've read it at least twice more, and enjoyed it every time ( and understood i…

Gödel, Escher, Bach is a prog rock concept album: 70s, deeply focused on consciousness, indulgent, holistic/synthetic, great displays of technical virtuosity, three-letter acronym, umlaut. Even if you love it, were changed by it, hear selections from it in your head, you keep it a little on the down low because it is so far from the mainstream notion of cool, acceptable. Occasionally, you find a fellow traveller and you share some guilty passion for its awesomeness, like you would for Rush's Hemispheres or Genesis' Lamb Lays Down... Back at the farm you've got to fall in line, claim allegiance to the essentialist raw power of K&R, the baroque symphonies of Don Knuth, and the chart-topping successes on Tim O'Reilly's Top 40. When you're alone, lounging in your earth chair, you slip on your headphones, crank-up your stereo hi-fi, pop in your GEB 8-track, and you're gone...

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#48

Post by kevbin » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 6:58 PM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #41

chanakya wrote: post #20

I have to say I'm very surprised at how few people here seem to have liked the book. Going by my experience, I would have expected that HN readers would have thoroughly enjoyed it. I first read it about 25 years ago, and while I didn't understand much of its philosophical arguments, I remember the experience as a sheer delight. Since then, i've read it at least twice more, and enjoyed it every time ( and understood i…

As Shakespeare says, "the readiness is all." It's one of those books that needs to find you at the right moment-- if you are not ready for it, some of it can seem like an odd mix of nonsense and hard work. If, on the other hand, you come to it after an advanced education in many of the topics, you might find it slight. I re-read it, and Metamagical Themas a couple years ago, and was pleased to find how well it held u…

Totally agree about GEB. But I never understood what I was supposed to get out of Pirsig's Zen and the Art of... I always felt like I was missing something that everyone else connected with. Do you remember what you connected with in it?

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#49

Post by scrame » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 7:07 PM UTC

kevbin wrote: post #47

chanakya wrote: post #20

I have to say I'm very surprised at how few people here seem to have liked the book. Going by my experience, I would have expected that HN readers would have thoroughly enjoyed it. I first read it about 25 years ago, and while I didn't understand much of its philosophical arguments, I remember the experience as a sheer delight. Since then, i've read it at least twice more, and enjoyed it every time ( and understood i…

Gödel, Escher, Bach is a prog rock concept album: 70s, deeply focused on consciousness, indulgent, holistic/synthetic, great displays of technical virtuosity, three-letter acronym, umlaut. Even if you love it, were changed by it, hear selections from it in your head, you keep it a little on the down low because it is so far from the mainstream notion of cool, acceptable. Occasionally, you find a fellow traveller and…

Holy shit, you nailed it. Now I'm thinking of Metamagical Themas as an early 80's new wave album.

(And GEB is all about barouque symphonies and Don Knuth)

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: A Mental Space Odyssey

#50

Post by scrame » Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 7:13 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #18

lionhearted wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I read it on Eliezer Yudkowsky's recommendation, but it was too much for me. I mean, I got a couple interesting ideas out of it, but I felt like I was barely scratching the surface. I wonder if anyone has written a good companion guide to read along with it.

It's a combination of two things: An extended musing on the nature of Godel's Incompleteness theorem, including its practical and philosophical consequences, and a series of things as jacoblyles explains in his comment. It's an arty/fun book, I don't think it's bad, but the "mystery" you perceive at the heart of it is simply Godel's theorem, which, to be fair, like many other aspects of computer science does indeed h…

True, but to say the book is just Godels theorem is underselling it. At its most clinical it is a survey of various sciences, at its essence it is an intuitive theory. The importance of Godels theorem is that an intuitive notion can be proven true in a mathematical framework, as opposed to the piles of bullshit pseudoscience new-age stuff saying Heisenburgs uncertainty principle makes everything subjective.