Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them • Hacker News Board

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#41

Post by amarkov » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:33 PM UTC

smallnamespace wrote: post #10

Just as an anecdote, met a recent state school grad who said he arrived on campus as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, tried to get into campus activism, and his fellow activists and teachers scared him so much that he's now not sure where he stands politically. Obviously I can't verify this, but for example he had a professor who actively taught that nations are a completely artificial social construct, and as such all im…

> Obviously I can't verify this, but for example he had a professor who actively taught that nations are a completely artificial social construct, and as such all immigration policies of any sort are illegitimate and harmful.

But that's a very mainstream position in economics, with much stronger arguments behind it than ideological purity. And it's typically supported by libertarians more than progressives, since the arguments are weakened by strong government-provided social services.

This is what I worry about, when I hear people complain that their views aren't tolerated on campus. Are they really being shut down by intolerant professors who won't accept dissent? Or are they dismissing ideas they don't immediately find reasonable as far-left propaganda and refusing to listen?

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#42

Post by Buttes » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

Helloworldboy wrote: post #19

stupidcar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are white supremacists a "fringe", when you have a US President who openly supports and defends them? Who spreads their propaganda to his 40 million Twitter followers? You can argue about to what extent his views are shared within the wider conservative movement, but when the conservative movement's democratically chosen leader supports an ideology like this, it is clearly not a "fringe".

Openly supports and defends? I'm no Trump fan but this seems blatantly false. He seems to have been disavowing racists since the start.

> He seems to have been disavowing racists since the start

Pandering to racists since the start:

* Initial refusal to rebuke David Duke.

* "Rapists" remark.

* Violence on "both sides".

* Not mentioning the Jews on Holocaust Remembrance day.

* No traditional White House Ramadan celebration.

* Attacking the hispanic judge in the Trump U case because of their race.

* Calling for and attempting to implement a "Muslim Ban".

* Appointing Jeff Sessions, who had been denied a judgeship due to his racist beliefs.

* The dog whistling about the lawless "inner cities".

* Supporting the birther theory.

The list goes on and on.

Even when he does rebuke racists, it's never prompt, and always with a wink and a nod. If you don't believe me, go peruse stormfront and look at all the threads celebrating their "victory" when Trump says these things, they recognize what's going on.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#43

Post by mnglkhn2 » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

klank wrote: post #24

smallnamespace wrote: post #10

Just as an anecdote, met a recent state school grad who said he arrived on campus as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, tried to get into campus activism, and his fellow activists and teachers scared him so much that he's now not sure where he stands politically. Obviously I can't verify this, but for example he had a professor who actively taught that nations are a completely artificial social construct, and as such all im…

> nations are a completely artificial social construct But if nations aren't simply social constructs, what are they? Is it the word "artificial" that is so surprising? Maybe I have more fringe beliefs than I thought I did.

Is there something in our societies that is not a social construct?!

Everything is a social construct if we live in a society. The alternative would be to leave in an animalic state.

These arguments that "such-and-such is a social construct" are akin to "water is wet." Just a statement of fact with no obvious implications.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#44

Post by chowchowchow » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:38 PM UTC

NPV_Computers wrote: post #36

klank wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nations are a completely artificial social construct But if nations aren't simply social constructs, what are they? Is it the word "artificial" that is so surprising? Maybe I have more fringe beliefs than I thought I did.

Yes, the problem is with the "artificial" part. Lots of things are social constructs but that does not that mean that you can dismiss them as automatically illegitimate.

Who said illegitimate? I take artificial in this context to mean not inherent, so like if you ran history over again the nations people have organized into over the centuries would be different.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#45

Post by jtbayly » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:39 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

Congratulations on being the straw man.

But seriously, this is exactly the sort of attitude and comment that gave us Trump as president. The idea that truth is relative was taught to the America public by the academy. Now you say that the academy is a place dedicated to the pursuit of "knowledge" and speak of the "value of fact" as if these are absolutes. But you do so just after talking about "consensus reality." Make up your mind. Either reality is defined by consensus or not.

If "consensus reality" isn't able to convince me that it will benefit me, why would I pursue it? And if "consensus reality" isn't even able to get enough consensus to keep Trump out of the White House, then you'll have to pardon me for laughing your "reality" right out the door.

You made your bed. Now you're lying in it and complaining that others won't join you.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#46

Post by jtbayly » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #20

thecatwentup wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that this is the exact attitude that the article is critical of. One persons perceived closed mindedness should not preclude them from sharing and refining their ideas in an academic setting, and being accepted as a member of the academic society.

The difference is that to participate in an acedemic setting you need to come with facts first . This, extremely low, bar "elitist" as it may be is necessary to provide at least the bare minimum of protection against bad actors. People unwilling to change their view poison the space for all participants. The pursuit of an unmoderated ideal is a false one.

Is it "facts" or "consensus reality" as the OP said? I'm very interested in facts. Consensus reality? Not so much.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#47

Post by ZoeZoeBee » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

chowchowchow wrote: post #44

NPV_Computers wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the problem is with the "artificial" part. Lots of things are social constructs but that does not that mean that you can dismiss them as automatically illegitimate.

Who said illegitimate? I take artificial in this context to mean not inherent, so like if you ran history over again the nations people have organized into over the centuries would be different.

Tribalism is a lot more inherent than many people on this site give credence to

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#48

Post by sbmassey » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

chowchowchow wrote: post #44

NPV_Computers wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the problem is with the "artificial" part. Lots of things are social constructs but that does not that mean that you can dismiss them as automatically illegitimate.

Who said illegitimate? I take artificial in this context to mean not inherent, so like if you ran history over again the nations people have organized into over the centuries would be different.

The second part of the statement was "and as such all immigration policies of any sort are illegitimate and harmful.", which seems to be being ignored by those who want to claim that the fellow was unreasonably complaining about nations being considered as social constructs.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#49

Post by jtbayly » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

lj3 wrote: post #28

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

> further way from participating in consensus reality > increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. Consensus reality is the opposite of the pursuit of knowledge. This is readily demonstrated by the decaying social trust in higher education.

Exactly. They taught the world that truth was relative and then they have the gall to demand that everybody has to take the academy's truth as the absolute truth. No thanks, I'll keep my own truth. I like it better.

Re: Elite colleges are making it easy for conservatives to dislike them

#50

Post by chowchowchow » Thu, Nov 30, 2017, 5:45 PM UTC

juliangoldsmith wrote: post #38

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #3

As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. If you reject not only the politics of your opponents, but the value of fact itself, why should they listen to or accommodate you? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/a...

>As the American right-wing moves further right and further way from participating in consensus reality, it should be no surprise they are increasingly less welcome in spaces dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge. The problem is the gap between consensus reality and objective reality. A lot of what the American left has been preaching recently (the Russia-Trump story, for instance) has no basis in objective reality,…

That's way overstating it -- people may jump to conclusions that don't match objective reality, but the string of suspicious meetings, consistent omissions from security clearance forms and testomonies, peculiar behaviors by advisors and campaign managers, are all things that did happen in reality.

Things like 3 million illegal aliens voted in California, or Barack Obama was born in Kenya, or John Podesta running a sex ring in the basement of a pizza parlor, are better examples of ideas fully divorced from objective reality.