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FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

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Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#41
post #9

This isn’t a surprise: comments are meant to ensure that rule-making agencies consider relevant information before making a final decision; they aren’t an opinion poll. See the Administrative Procedure Act, 5 U.S.C. § 553(c): After notice required by this section, the agency shall give interested persons an opportunity to participate in the rule making through submission of written data, views, or arguments with or w…

Are you suggesting that only legal arguments or facts are relevant? So an actual analysis (which would necessarily include predictions that are not certain) of the impact of a decision is irrelevant?

An actual analysis, what exactly do you mean?

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#42
Ignoring the specific issue in this case that the outcome appears to be pre-determined, it remains that the surface process being followed is standard for regulators.

Regulators hold public/industry consultations to gather evidence and arguments that need to be taken into account in coming to their final decision. They are not running popularity contests (which would be too easy to rig if that was the standard used). The arguments submitted are usually a mix of legal and economic (including models) based on data or clearly stated assumptions (ideally). For example, an industry stakeholder might make a legal argument that the regulator is making a decision beyond the remit of the legislation, or make an economic argument that if the proposed decision is adopted, then this will remove the infrastructure investment incentive for the stakeholder (including the data to substantiate this).

In making their final decision, the regulator should take into account all the arguments put forward, and respond to them in their final report. Submissions that are substantially the same (or sections within) will be grouped together and responded to as a single point. The regulator should explain why they reject or adopt each argument.

The criteria that a regulator uses to evaluate the different arguments and come to a final decision is set by the enabling legislation. I have not worked within the US legal framework, but I have both prepared submissions to and worked with numerous regulators in Asia and Europe. In most cases, the criteria is deals with the best interests of consumers with a consideration of both costs and benifits. Often a longer term view is required to be taken, which biases towards promoting investment in infrastructure over time rather than maximising short time utilisation of existing infrastructure.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#43
post #30

Every ISP is now legally liable for every posting made by their users. Including the White House ISP Trump uses to tweet from. So anything abusive, insulting, threatening, etc - they are legally liable for it. They are no longer common carriers like phone companies. If they transmit pornography to a minor, they are legally liable for it, not the site which hosts it. The loss of common carrier status can, and absolute…

Can you provide a source for this claim?

My assumption is that parent thinks this somehow makes ISPs a common carrier, and that means blah, blah, blah. I’d be supremely surprised if highly-paid corporate lawyers somehow overlooked this. “Where are all these class action suits coming from? What?! $1000/hour and you got pwned by some random guy on the Internet?”

Yeah, I don’t think so.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#44
post #17

To me it is a utility argument: A wealthier household would receive "premium filtered water" through the plumbing while other homes that are paying the standard rate would be given filthy and untreated water through their plumbing. Does the water utility violate a law practicing this way? Because if it does, the same is true of Abolishing Net Neutrality.

You think Grosse Point, MI isn’t already getting better water than Flint?

(Context for our non-US readers at home: Grosse Point==wealthy Detroit suburb, Flint==nationally famous for lead-filled water.)

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#45
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m suggesting only that form-letter comments or statements of support or opposition, unaccompanied by substantive facts, analysis, or argument, don’t do much to develop the administrative record, which is the point of taking public comment in rulemaking proceedings. Agencies must consider the comments, but as 'JumpCrisscross points out, they don’t have to accept the commenters’ views. The outcome is determined not b…

Kind of makes actual democracy obsolete I suppose; we seemingly now require technocratic governance and do not require attention towards other public sentiment outside of technical/legal analysis. I get this perspective, but I think it's very exclusionary and dismissive. Limiting input to that which addresses procedural questions or point-of-order effectively narrows conversation so that other perspectives outside of…

I mean, there's a reason the US is a republic and not a democracy. Very often the public opinion is just white noise. As the parent comment said, if you don't like the rules, you're supposed to elect new representatives.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an exchange of goods. Doing anything to impede speeds of specific websites is illegal.

Anything that congress says is legal is legal. When you vote, you vote for the people who make things legal. You voted to make this legal.

I think that people who really care about Internet quality are the tiny minority and being a minority means you don't have enough votes to elect even one member of Congress. So the net neutrality is effectively the minority's rights.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that congress says is legal is legal. When you vote, you vote for the people who make things legal. You voted to make this legal.

I think that people who really care about Internet quality are the tiny minority and being a minority means you don't have enough votes to elect even one member of Congress. So the net neutrality is effectively the minority's rights.

You have to convince the people that elected the current POTUS that they won't be able to look at porn, deer hunting, fishing, car, and all the other things they like for "free" anymore.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#48
post #14

Current FCC plans run afoul of anti-trust law since they would allow monopolistic ISPs who own the physical network and services like video, to harm competitors (which provide over the top services that have to go through the above physical network) by using data caps, interconnection blocking and other anti-competitive approaches. How is that not a serious legal argument?

The anti-trust behavior itself would run foul of laws, not the FCC plans.

This is really the fundamental point of Pai's argument, at least so far as I can read it. Is that instead of creating an extensive set of 'preemptive' rules that are not necessarily forward looking. For throughout limited near future services like satellite or balloon internet, throttling/blocking/etc will almost certainly be necessary. The current rules, at least he ones written under Wheeler, had a completely undefined "reasonable network management" exception allowing companies to break any rule, but that's a somewhat uncomfortable clause to rely on when you're investing tens of billions of dollars.

So instead of writing hundreds of pages of static rules which can arguably interfere with competition or innovation, deal with bad behavior as it emerges through the proper channels. And in many cases that bad behavior would not be managed by the FCC - as you mention we already actually have pretty reasonable anti-trust law as well as consumer protections. And organizations like the EFF would certainly be on the forefront of making sure these protections are utilized to the max potential allowed by the law.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#49
post #27

I don't understand. Aren't we commenting about what we (the public) believe should or should not be legal? In other words, isn't it about choosing new laws rather than interpreting legality of existing ones?

Actually, no. Laws are made by the Legislature, so communications directed to your legislators can express a view about laws you feel should be enacted, repealed or modified.

The FCC is a regulatory body, with certain authority and areas of concern. The rule making is delegated to the appointed members of the commission. Rules != Laws. If a rule breaks a law, you don’t have to take it to SCOTUS to overturn the rule; a suit in a Federal circuit or charges from law enforcement will usually do the trick.

All that said, the FCC is there to serve the people and should consider the impact rules will have on society and listen to all voices. They are not limited to accepting only legal input for their rule making processes.

Re: FCC ignored your net neutrality comment unless you made ‘serious’ legal argument

#50
post #14

Current FCC plans run afoul of anti-trust law since they would allow monopolistic ISPs who own the physical network and services like video, to harm competitors (which provide over the top services that have to go through the above physical network) by using data caps, interconnection blocking and other anti-competitive approaches. How is that not a serious legal argument?

The anti-trust behavior itself would run foul of laws, not the FCC plans. This is really the fundamental point of Pai's argument, at least so far as I can read it. Is that instead of creating an extensive set of 'preemptive' rules that are not necessarily forward looking. For throughout limited near future services like satellite or balloon internet, throttling/blocking/etc will almost certainly be necessary. The cur…

Since FCC facilitates that monopolistic behavior, there is a strong legal argument against it. That was the point.

Pai has no valid argument. He basically says: "We should let monopolists run amok by removing current rules. Get lost if you don't like it". That's because dealing with monopolistic abuse through "proper channels" produced close to zero results in the past.

And somehow EFF are rarely involved in anti-trust issues. I wonder why.

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