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On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

pfrazee.github.io

41–50 of 61 posts

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#41
post #8
post #5

The catch is at the end: "There are some downsides to losing decentralized consensus. A ledger-backed service could manipulate the order in which it handles requests, or reject some requests altogether, and clients would have a hard time proving it." Calling that a "secure ledger" is kind of a stretch.

There's aaalways a catch. See my response to hagreet. Neither of those problems are unfixable.

Incidentally, I think there may be a product here that could be sold to financial institutions. Check out

https://www.hyperledger.org/ https://www.r3.com/

There are lots of other 'private blockchain' distributed ledgers being pitched right now to financial institutions and to me the distributed aspect of them seems like a bit of an inconvenient and unnecessary complication for those use cases.

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#42
>it would be profitable for Bitcoin miners to burn through over 24 terawatt-hours of electricity annually

So 0.02%[1] of the global per annum energy consumption? I'll gladly trade that to run an economy without violence and bring financial inclusion to 6 billion unbanked people.

[1] 24/109613*100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

>Because you don’t need permission to buy hashing power and participate in Bitcoin, there’s no way a “51% attack” can be stopped, except by outbuying your competitors

Incorrect, this author doesn't understand the minernode relationship. Miners do what users value or else users change the consensus system they value. DoubleSHA256->Script or Equihash etc etc

>In Bitcoin, acceptance of a change is signaled by the miners - once some percent of the miners agree, the change is accepted. This means that hashing power is used as a measure of voting power, and so the political system is essentially plutocratic.

Incorrect again. The author is mistaking how consensus-level changes, that users want, are coordinated among miners. BIP 9 was a method where users said "we'll wait for you all miners to coordinate amongst yourself a consensus change" which was used to delay. In the future Bitcoin will use BIP 8 which is "Miners prepare to have your old consensus rejected at flag point X or else your blocks will be orphaned.

>Bitcoin has been wildly unstable, with controversies and forks happening quarterly.

The bitcoin network is stable as a table. Bitcoin can't deny anyone from creating their own fork from consensus. This is a critical feature not bug, to be able to easily exit from the system. It prevents lock in that plague trusted third parties.

>I’d explain proof-of-stake here, except that I don’t totally understand it yet.

If you don't understand the second most prominent proposal for decentralized consensus, why are you writing a critique about blockchains? PoS is inherently broken from an economic perspective because it is no more "efficient" than PoW. Marginal Cost = Marginal Revenue.

If you have an incentive mechanism that says, "Do X and you get Y money" you're going to spend Xhttp://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/

PoW = destroy X value in fiat space to gain Y value in Bitcoin space PoS = destroy X value in Ethereum-PoS space (via TVoM, meat-space work) to gain Y value in Ethereum-PoS

The value in PoW is that it's very hard to 'more efficiently' consume electricity than your competitor. All that PoS does is push that wasted work into hidden area or human space.

>Instead of a network of miners, you use a single host. That host maintains a secure ledger which contains the host state and its activity log, including all requests and their results. That ledger is then published for clients to actively sync and monitor.

Ah, So digicash. Which when it went out of business the market died because there was no coordinator any more to check double spends. Let's assume that the business never can go out of business. If I want to destroy the network, I can compromise one system and control the entire state of the database. Ok let's assume the system is uncompromisible. Oops the state just censored your 'secure' ledger because someone did something with it that the political class didn't like. "We'll host it in a country with 'just' laws" There is no such thing as "the public good" where all people benefit from a certain action. There will always be winners and losers in any policy decision. Now value is sapped from the system by constantly having to pay lawyers to defend your rights from encroachment by the state.

The author is right to question if everyone application needs to run on a blockchain (hint: they don't). But if you need trustless, robust, decentralized, uncensorable state to be agreed on by multiple parties, you're gonna need a blockchain

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#43

Ugh. He completely misunderstands what PoW (or PoS) are for. The entire point of PoW is deciding between two valid & correct blockchain states. Alice owns a bitcoin. Alice validly signs a transaction transferring that bitcoin to Bob. Alice also validly signs a transaction transferring that same bitcoin to Charles. WHICH IS CORRECT? Neither is a forgery. Both signatures are valid. If Dave downloads the blockchain, or…

Hey said this about proof of work.. is it wrong? It sounded good to me, but I never got into blockchain stuff. > What is proof-of-work? Proof-of-work is a system for establishing “decentralized consensus.” Agreeing about the order of events is very difficult in computer networks, especially if you can’t trust the other computers involved. Unfortunately, it’s also very hard to establish trust in a global network which…

> Proof-of-work solves that problem by putting the network on a trustworthy clock. It’s a kind of computation which takes a predictable amount of time to run, and which can’t be forged by a bad actor.

That’s not right. PoW takes a completely unpredictable amount of time. It’s not about a clock ticking, it’s about making the presence of two incompatible versions of history as expensive as possible, thus forcing the network into consensus.

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#44
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Brock. My argument is that decentralized consensus is actually a political solution. It has technical merits -- it makes it easier to deal with a host that breaks the contract, because there are lots of nodes, so you just 'route around' the faulty host's output. But that's a technical solution to a political problem: how do you deal with a bad actor. And we deal with that every day with existing services, by swit…

How do you "switch" from a global shared ledger that everyone uses to a shared ledger that no one uses? I mean, you an, you can fork Bitcoin and start your own, but what does that get you? No one else will use your coin. There will be no market for it and it will have no value. I mean if you're REALLY lucky you'll start something that's as popular as Litecoin and it will be worth 1% of what your Bitcoins were worth.…

the post is talking about using blockchains as a systems tool to build a distributed ledger, not how to create a new cool crypto currency that will be more 31337 than bitcoin.

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#45
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So essentially you need a trusted third party and if that party stops being trustworthy you have to start from scratch?

Semi-trusted. You have total transparency into whether the node is following the rules of the code contract. The node could not, for instance, change values in the DB without doing so via the contract, and that would be logged for all to see. Very important for something like a key server. There are two things you have to trust, which I mention in the post. 1. That the node is not denying writes. (What's sometimes in…

If I can make a suggestion, you might want to look into the structure of the blockchain networks that use a network of known super-nodes to watch and verify each other.

If you have hundreds of known, diverse nodes distributed globally (run by very different institutions like Harvard, Bank of America, the Vatican, the Red Cross, the Gates Foundation, the House of Saud, etc. etc.) they can all watch each other, and the odds of them all going offline at the same time or cooperating to deny a specific user's transactions are very low.

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Brock. My argument is that decentralized consensus is actually a political solution. It has technical merits -- it makes it easier to deal with a host that breaks the contract, because there are lots of nodes, so you just 'route around' the faulty host's output. But that's a technical solution to a political problem: how do you deal with a bad actor. And we deal with that every day with existing services, by swit…

How do you "switch" from a global shared ledger that everyone uses to a shared ledger that no one uses? I mean, you an, you can fork Bitcoin and start your own, but what does that get you? No one else will use your coin. There will be no market for it and it will have no value. I mean if you're REALLY lucky you'll start something that's as popular as Litecoin and it will be worth 1% of what your Bitcoins were worth.…

I think you're right that handling catastrophic failure is the key question for a hosted ledger. You have to find a way for the network to agree on who will rehydrate the balances, so to speak, into a replacement host, and you need to do it quickly. The whole network has to agree on this.

This isn't impossible to solve. You can establish, in the ledger itself, the process for migration after a catastrophic failure. You can set a party which will mediate the issue and decide on the solution. You set up rules for how to reconfigure the network, and trigger them when a corruption proof is published.

I agree it's less elegant than what decentralized consensus provides for handling bad nodes, but you really have to balance this against the expenditure of proof-of-work. The cost of a handling every ledger failure ever will almost certainly be less than the cost of proof-of-work.

Part of my point is also that it's a gamble, which I find questionable, that Bitcoin will become "the blockchain" in the future, because it still has a political reality, and that political reality has involved plenty of forks. So, my point is, between the cost and the political instability, PoW doesn't sustain it's claim.

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#47
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Paul. I'm Brock. I hope we're not talking at past each other, but I read your post as proposing a system where there's a central party that computes transactions "in the open" in a way that third party observers can verify. That's hardly useless, but it's not a replacement for Proof of Work. PoW is for decentralizing the ability to choose between competing valid blockchains. It prevents double-spending by making t…

Hey Brock. My argument is that decentralized consensus is actually a political solution. It has technical merits -- it makes it easier to deal with a host that breaks the contract, because there are lots of nodes, so you just 'route around' the faulty host's output. But that's a technical solution to a political problem: how do you deal with a bad actor. And we deal with that every day with existing services, by swit…

> It has technical merits -- it makes it easier to deal with a host that breaks the contract, because there are lots of nodes, so you just 'route around' the faulty host's output

How do you decide whether a host is faulty unless there’s consensus on what constitutes non-faulty? And how do you reach this agreement in a distributed manner without distributed consensus?

You can’t switch away from a bad actor in a decentralized system unless you have a decentralized way to establish who’s a bad actor.

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#48
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semi-trusted. You have total transparency into whether the node is following the rules of the code contract. The node could not, for instance, change values in the DB without doing so via the contract, and that would be logged for all to see. Very important for something like a key server. There are two things you have to trust, which I mention in the post. 1. That the node is not denying writes. (What's sometimes in…

If I can make a suggestion, you might want to look into the structure of the blockchain networks that use a network of known super-nodes to watch and verify each other. If you have hundreds of known, diverse nodes distributed globally (run by very different institutions like Harvard, Bank of America, the Vatican, the Red Cross, the Gates Foundation, the House of Saud, etc. etc.) they can all watch each other, and the…

[deleted]

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey said this about proof of work.. is it wrong? It sounded good to me, but I never got into blockchain stuff. > What is proof-of-work? Proof-of-work is a system for establishing “decentralized consensus.” Agreeing about the order of events is very difficult in computer networks, especially if you can’t trust the other computers involved. Unfortunately, it’s also very hard to establish trust in a global network which…

> Proof-of-work solves that problem by putting the network on a trustworthy clock. It’s a kind of computation which takes a predictable amount of time to run, and which can’t be forged by a bad actor. That’s not right. PoW takes a completely unpredictable amount of time. It’s not about a clock ticking, it’s about making the presence of two incompatible versions of history as expensive as possible, thus forcing the ne…

There's more wrong statements in the quote, like blockchain solving consensus (it's not, it's a document timestamping).

Re: On blockchains and why secure ledgers don't require proof-of-work

#50
post #35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is value in a blockchain beyond a ledger of currency, and some of that value still remains when using a centralized service. Specifically, if you want to offer a service where you can guarantee non-repudiation a centralized blockchain is a great solution. By non-repudiation, in the scenario of a double-spend whomever signed both transactions is 'on the hook' for both. This doesn't work for currency but works fo…

Where does the blockchain come in? As long as you have a signature from the central authority over two conflicting transactions, you can prove it has defrauded you. Blockchains specifically solve decentralized consensus. It’s expensive and slow compared to using a central authority, but the advantage is that the system doesn’t suffer from a central point of failure.

> Blockchains specifically solve decentralized consensus.

Wrong. Blockchains specifically timestamp documents. Consensus is a different problem and blockchains don't even touch that.

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