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Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

theguardian.com

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Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#41

Post by tomaskafka »

mc32 wrote: post #25
tboyd47 wrote: post #9

I think he's overstating Marvel/DC's cultural significance. The new generation of viewers have a very different moral sensibility. The evil is much more shockingly evil, but the good is less cartoonish and more relatable, and therefore more vulnerable. I just finished watching the new Stranger Things season. One of the things I love about that show is that it juxtaposes the 1980s kids' sci-fi genre with a storyline t…

His lament seems to be the cartoonish worlds were for kids to indulge in, while they formed ideals of good and bad, etc. However, today's comics audience is a mature audience seeking escapism rather than one forming its moral compass.

Come on. Wishing a 'superdaddy' or a 'supermom' would came and took away our complex problems with a single act is not mature.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#42

Post by junkscience2017 »

Alan Moore alternates between trashing mainstream comic companies and cashing their checks.

DC is a villain to Moore because he willfully traded away the rights to his greatest creation (Watchmen) and then watched them cash in on it.

Moore is a great writer but a poor (contract) reader and he's been ranting about it ever since.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#43

Post by kakarot »

humanrebar wrote: post #29

Moore says: > I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times. And Tolkien said: > There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish [mythology] (which greatly…

Yea, that's how I've seen it for a long time. Comic books, superheros, villains, all of it is just massively intertwined mythology. There's nothing wrong with it. Many of these characters will be around for our grandchildren's children to enjoy.

But, as they already have been, and as nascent mythology tends to do, the stories and characters will be updated to fit the modern times. I kind of like watching that.

For example, how after the golden age of comics, a lot of Marvel stories started dealing with the perils of modern technology, and the shrinking need for heros as well as increasing perceived need for controlling these heros. The Avengers story in the MCU is a great example of this, pulling on decades-old storylines about the relationship between a society and its heroes. I mean comics aren't even 100 years old yet, complaining that they are bad for culture is kind of silly because we have no empirical data to compare it to.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#44

Post by tenpies »

brad0 wrote: post #22
hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

I think his problem is more along the lines of: Rather that an entire country or group of people getting angry because people in power are morally corrupt they're just watching the latest Iron Man and discussing pointless things like Art Direction and the Actresses Performance.

Counter-point: our traditional role models and real life heroes have proven to be so fallible that we are returning to folklore for models of what to aspire to.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#45

Post by kakarot »

hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

I don't know about that. On the surface, it would seem comics are a display of clear differences of right and wrong, but actually more often than not these storylines specifically revolve around the ambiguity between right and wrong, and how fine the line between a hero and a villain can be.

They challenge our notions of clarity and discreteness, and replace them with a continuous function of circumstance, emotion, and personal morality.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#46

Post by jblow »

junkscience2017 wrote: post #42

Alan Moore alternates between trashing mainstream comic companies and cashing their checks. DC is a villain to Moore because he willfully traded away the rights to his greatest creation (Watchmen) and then watched them cash in on it. Moore is a great writer but a poor (contract) reader and he's been ranting about it ever since.

Condescending and unnecessary. How do you know he's a poor contract reader? Compared to whom, you? Do you know exactly what position he was in at that time? Have you ever been in such a position? Do you make art independently for a living, or even try?

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#47

Post by kakarot »

mc32 wrote: post #25
tboyd47 wrote: post #9

I think he's overstating Marvel/DC's cultural significance. The new generation of viewers have a very different moral sensibility. The evil is much more shockingly evil, but the good is less cartoonish and more relatable, and therefore more vulnerable. I just finished watching the new Stranger Things season. One of the things I love about that show is that it juxtaposes the 1980s kids' sci-fi genre with a storyline t…

His lament seems to be the cartoonish worlds were for kids to indulge in, while they formed ideals of good and bad, etc. However, today's comics audience is a mature audience seeking escapism rather than one forming its moral compass.

I dunno. I don't think it's such a clear-cut situation. I definitely just read comics because it is something to do and I like contemplating the stories.

But as a kid I suffered long term child abuse and it was about escapism for me from day one growing up. I seriously talked myself out of suicide more than once on the premise that I would get to find out what happened in the next episode of ______.

But now I'm older, away from those horrible people and have much less to escape from... It's more about the intellectual curiosity, and yes, the dilemma of good vs evil.

Upon reflection, my experience is literally the opposite from what you and Moore are claiming.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#48

Post by maxerickson »

humanrebar wrote: post #29

Moore says: > I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times. And Tolkien said: > There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish [mythology] (which greatly…

Superman is pretty much Hercules for the jet age.

Born special, good at trying, wildly powerful, noble, etc.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#49

Post by humanrebar »

maxerickson wrote: post #48
humanrebar wrote: post #29

Moore says: > I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times. And Tolkien said: > There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish [mythology] (which greatly…

Superman is pretty much Hercules for the jet age. Born special, good at trying, wildly powerful, noble, etc.

Murders his family in a rage and tries to earn penance through acts of strength and valor... no, wait...

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#50

Post by eli_gottlieb »

hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

>This has been a half formed thought bouncing around in my head, but I think part of the reason for the resurgence of comic books and superheroes is the simple fact that we live in a complex world where there are very few instances of Good and Evil. We live in a subtle, complex, and nuanced world, where if you take the time to dig in to an issue, you find more complexity...and a lot of really morally compromised people. We don't live in a Good/Evil world, but we want to. I think that comics are a retreat from that, a mental/moral bulwark that gives us an outlet for our need for Right and Wrong. We might not be able to figure out without coming to blows, but we sure as hell can agree that Thanos is a piece of shit, and that Batman is wicked cool.

Now, I always think this, but I think we also need some amount of moralizing mythology to remind us that, at the end of the day, when the time comes to act, there really are such things as good and evil. My favorite superhero movies tend to be the ones that show it, rather than trying to add "complexity" by actually removing the mythic content by invoking gray-vs-black morality and calling it "complexity".

Captain America: the First Avenger did it well, though I'd have liked them to have kept the Red Skull as a loyal Nazi. Let Hydra genuinely be portrayed as a Nazi cult, carried from its origins in WW2 to the modern day. It's mythically important that a Nazi piece of shit gets punched in the face by Just a Kid from Brooklyn.

It's mythically utterly unimportant that one manic-psychopath and another brooding, resentful psychopath "can do this forever" (The Dark Knight).

It's moral complexity when a fortunate kid from Queens tries to find some responsible way to deal with a working-class villain just trying to make it good in a world dominated by the Tony Starks and Thors (Spiderman Homecoming). White versus mid-light gray (with a good reason to be gray) offers us a compelling conflict, in a way that "two pieces of shit fight each-other" does not.

(Yeah, Marvel > DC, and holy war upon anyone who says otherwise.)

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