Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 52 posts

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#41

Post by tonylemesmer »

athenot wrote: post #34

I'm no economics expert so there's probably flaws in this idea but I've been wondering if we should levy a tax on usury (in its older interpretation). Looking at all the ways that money flows from the poor to the rich, it seems usury (in the form of profits derived from rent and interest) are large contributors. This has traditionally been the position in Judaism, Christianity and Islam (and I think many tribal socie…

My guess is that increased levies or taxes on loans would end up being paid by the borrower and make the loan even more expensive.

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#42

Post by ionised »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #8
dest wrote: post #3

would it mean that rents are not going to increase because people are not going to pay for it?

It could also mean that they cut back on vacations and other ancillary spending.

The people struggling aren't doing those things in the first place.

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#43

Post by stuaxo »

_joel wrote: post #35
lotsofpulp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also mean that they cut back on vacations and other ancillary spending.

I really don't think you understand how bad the problem is. They don't take holidays as they have no money. The amount of rough sleepers I've seen on the streets recently has risen beyond all comprehension. It's directly correlated to austerity (and universal credit implementation)

Indeed it has increased by 134% 2010 - 2016 according to this org

http://www.homeless.org.uk/facts/homelessness-in-numbers/rou...

Now universal credit is being rolled out, this is likely to massively increase.

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#44

Post by adekok »

pygy_ wrote: post #23
adekok wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in nature, organisms don't grow to the limits of their environment, right? They willingly limit their growth so that all enlightened organisms can share equally in a workers paradise, amidst songs of empowerment and fraternity, while marching collectively towards a bold new future! Yeah... no. Evolution shows us that organisms do grow to the limits of their environment. A "capitalist" system is no different.…

Provided resources are finite and the sun's output is constant, gradually limiting growth would indeed be wise unless we want to fall off a cliff at some point. ———— Edit: in response to your edit: Healthy ecosystems strive at equilibrium. If a species consumes more energy than its environment can supply or produces more entropy than its environment can dissipate, things go bad for the environment and for the species…

> Healthy ecosystems strive at equilibrium.

Nonsense.

The only reason systems are in equilibrium is because of negative feedback. Predators eat prey. Diseases kill plants / animals, etc.

Remove the negative feedback, and you get un-checked growth.

This is basic biology...

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#45

Post by reitanqild »

adekok wrote: post #20
betaby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we pretend we are smart and capitalism is the best system. We believe we are better than amoebas.

For all my dislike of capitalism, there aren't many better systems. Perhaps capitalism leavened with some socialism (public roads, police, health care, etc.) i.e. what most rich western societies have.

To add some detail here:

The last hundred years a number of political systems has been tested.

Compared to how almost every single communist experiment has ended, - and also nazism (far fewer examples but for some reason I really don’t want that either :-/) I far prefer what select lucky European countries and USA as well has done. Specifically I really think the European democracies has almost nailed it with reasonably good public health care, reasonable taxes all while still allowing and encouraging competition between for-profit companies.

"The advantage of communism is that everyone is equally poor. The disadvantage of capitalism is that some people are richer than others." - something I heard as a kid

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

Winston S Churchill

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#46

Post by petercooper »

LaurensBER wrote: post #38
ams6110 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also remarkable how efficient it is at creating wealth for people willing to forego some immediate gratification. My parents had over $1 million saved when they retired, and had never earned 6 figures in a year, combined. How? Investing a little every month in index funds in an IRA. Aside from that they also put two kids through college. But yes, if you decide to spend every dollar you earn, capitalism will happ…

Do note, dollar. In Europe the tax system works very different, e.g in The Netherlands they would tax you ~1.2% on the return of your stock investment tax plus the other taxes that you would pay means that for middle class incomes saving 1 million is basically impossible. I assume that GB works exactly the same.

Not really. In the UK we have "ISA" accounts which let you invest something like £20K per year at the moment and all gains are tax free. So after ten years you could have a £200K+ portfolio earning whatever. Except most people don't have £20K a year to invest, of course..

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#47

Post by petercooper »

aetherson wrote: post #22

I mean, that's $780 per year. I don't know what the, er, lowest hexile in the UK makes, but surely it's no better than $30k per year, right? And in fact probably much worse. So they'd struggle if they suddenly had expenses that were 2.5% of their income or more? That doesn't seem revelatory.

For a single adult, second decile was £11,300 in 2014 (roughly $15K now, a bit more at the time).

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#48

Post by pygy_ »

adekok wrote: post #44
pygy_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provided resources are finite and the sun's output is constant, gradually limiting growth would indeed be wise unless we want to fall off a cliff at some point. ———— Edit: in response to your edit: Healthy ecosystems strive at equilibrium. If a species consumes more energy than its environment can supply or produces more entropy than its environment can dissipate, things go bad for the environment and for the species…

> Healthy ecosystems strive at equilibrium. Nonsense. The only reason systems are in equilibrium is because of negative feedback. Predators eat prey. Diseases kill plants / animals, etc. Remove the negative feedback, and you get un-checked growth. This is basic biology...

Negative feedback is part of healthy ecosystems, because resources _are_ limited. These loops are necessary for long term survival.

What you describe is cancer.

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#49

Post by aetherson »

aninhumer wrote: post #39
aetherson wrote: post #22

I mean, that's $780 per year. I don't know what the, er, lowest hexile in the UK makes, but surely it's no better than $30k per year, right? And in fact probably much worse. So they'd struggle if they suddenly had expenses that were 2.5% of their income or more? That doesn't seem revelatory.

Really? I think the framing that 1 in 6 people don't have at least 2.5% of slack in their finances is equally damning.

As others have noted, it's not "will collapse into a disaster," it's "struggle."

It is not news to me that in general, relatively poor people do not have a ton of slack in their finances. If it's news to you, well... okay. But I think you just weren't paying attention.

Re: Half of UK adults are financially vulnerable, City watchdog finds

#50

Post by aetherson »

petercooper wrote: post #47
aetherson wrote: post #22

I mean, that's $780 per year. I don't know what the, er, lowest hexile in the UK makes, but surely it's no better than $30k per year, right? And in fact probably much worse. So they'd struggle if they suddenly had expenses that were 2.5% of their income or more? That doesn't seem revelatory.

For a single adult, second decile was £11,300 in 2014 (roughly $15K now, a bit more at the time).

So, right, something in the general vicinity of 5% of their yearly income.

Again, it doesn't seem really surprising that lots of relatively poor people would "struggle" with additional expenses equal to around 5% of their income.

Post reply on HN