Make plans for when the Chinese bubble pops. I'm quite confident they are in one, but regardless of your own feelings on that topic you can't rationally put the probability of that at 0%. When it pops, I don't know what would happen and there is another non-0% (and IMHO significant) chance that it might not be pleasant to be a foreigner at the time, especially a Westerner. If something looks to be popping I would make sure I could get the hell out of there.
Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
41–50 of 122 posts
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#42I lived in China in 2008 and while I'm no expert on China, you will learn quite quickly that some of your perceptions about China are not true: - In china, you can pay a programmer 600€ a month Sure, for average programmers. For good ones, you are going to be paying the same as elsewhere. A friend of mine there told me her brother was earning nearly $500 US/day working as a programmer for a company and they even gave…
To add to your point on bribery, let's not forget that many countries have laws against bribing foreign officials. In the US it's the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act). I'd assume Europe has something similar (Wikipedia brings up a missing link to a European "Criminal Law Convention on Corruption", but I haven't looked into it).
Even if the host country is somewhat lax in its own enforcement, laws like this could make returning home rather dicey should one find themselves paying "unofficial costs".
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#43I lived in China in 2008 and while I'm no expert on China, you will learn quite quickly that some of your perceptions about China are not true: - In china, you can pay a programmer 600€ a month Sure, for average programmers. For good ones, you are going to be paying the same as elsewhere. A friend of mine there told me her brother was earning nearly $500 US/day working as a programmer for a company and they even gave…
Their educational system focuses more on memorization. Creativity and problem solving are not taught very much. This is going to be a huge problem when hiring programmers right out of university. They will be looking to you to tell them everything they should be doing.
Why do you believe this is different than in the US? While I've never hired programmers right out of university, most of the students I taught in university strongly objected when I demanded independent thought from them.
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#44he mad.
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#45I lived in China in 2008 and while I'm no expert on China, you will learn quite quickly that some of your perceptions about China are not true: - In china, you can pay a programmer 600€ a month Sure, for average programmers. For good ones, you are going to be paying the same as elsewhere. A friend of mine there told me her brother was earning nearly $500 US/day working as a programmer for a company and they even gave…
Their educational system focuses more on memorization. Creativity and problem solving are not taught very much. This is going to be a huge problem when hiring programmers right out of university. They will be looking to you to tell them everything they should be doing. Why do you believe this is different than in the US? While I've never hired programmers right out of university, most of the students I taught in univ…
Sure, it happens in the US too. It's just more prevalent in China. When it comes to cultural differences, you can find the same examples in every culture. People steal from their companies in the US too. It's a matter of if these aspects appear more or less than in your culture.
At least you were trying to teach them independent thought. Teachers and parents do not do this much in China. The sense of hierarchy and obedience to authority appears more in China so the teachers/bosses/parents take advantage of this and just tell students what to do while students do not question them. Again, this is all on a general level.
My opinions were formed by talking to people about it, not from my own experience in the Chinese educational system.
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#46When in China, do as the Chinese do. If you want to really get off the ground there you'll need to partner with a local that knows the ways things are done, which is not always intuitive from a 'westerner' point of view. A friend of mine is currently going this route and there are a few other HN'ers that are doing this, maybe you guys should get together somehow and compare notes. That might save everybody both hards…
I am not in China, but have an office in Asia, it's an adventure.
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#47Premature optimization is the root of all evil.
Your company is young and your period of profitability is relatively short-lived to date. It seems unwise to have taken a business which appeared to be working well and overhauling it completely to (possibly) reduce costs which did not need to be reduced.
Do you have a 'plan-b' to allow you to quickly revert your company to its previous state if things do not go as planned?
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#48having been in all three places, you should leave europe to start your company. but move to silicon valley instead.
How will moving to SV help with his number one concern (programmer cost)? In the EU he pays $5000/month for programmers. In the valley he will be paying roughly twice that. (The valley may have higher quality programmers and a better tech ecosystem, but I'm guessing the author is looking for grunts rather than artisans.)
You can just get the SV VC's to pay for all that. They'll invest in anything.
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#49When in China, do as the Chinese do. If you want to really get off the ground there you'll need to partner with a local that knows the ways things are done, which is not always intuitive from a 'westerner' point of view. A friend of mine is currently going this route and there are a few other HN'ers that are doing this, maybe you guys should get together somehow and compare notes. That might save everybody both hards…
I would certainly love to meet other HNers that are going this route, perhaps you could set me up. I've got two close and old friends of mine that are locals and are collaborating with me, so that's good.
I live in Shenyang, Liaoning province (northeast of China) since June/2009. Drop me a line if you want to talk. My email is on my profile.
Re: Why I’m giving up on Europe and moving my startup to China
#50When in China, do as the Chinese do. If you want to really get off the ground there you'll need to partner with a local that knows the ways things are done, which is not always intuitive from a 'westerner' point of view. A friend of mine is currently going this route and there are a few other HN'ers that are doing this, maybe you guys should get together somehow and compare notes. That might save everybody both hards…
Good idea. I'm also doing my startup in Shenzhen, China. If anyone's interested to get in touch, my contact info is in my profile.