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Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

nytimes.com

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Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#41

Post by hydrogen18 »

mcny wrote: post #27
sethammons wrote: post #20

This reminds me of some program I watched. They took wolves raised by people and dogs, and then, separately, placed the animal in near reach of food that was in a cage. The dogs eventually realized they could not get to the food and looked at people for help. The wolves never sought human intervention and continued trying to get at the food on their own.

Dogs are better than humans because they can obviously see past the fact that humans look nothing like dogs and still accept humans in their "pack". Even cats seem to have the control when playing with humans to not scratch too deep by which I assume they accept humans in their group as well.

It's not that dogs can "see past" the fact that humans aren't dogs. They can't tell that humans aren't dogs at all. In fact, if an animal is non-aggressive domesticated dogs are often just friendly with it.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#42

Post by learnstats2 »

bambax wrote: post #6

> something is deeply different in dog genes, or in how and when those genes become active, and scientists are trying to determine exactly what it is Darwin famously observed in the first chapter of On the Origin of Species that not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears . Darwin himself attributed it to "muscle misuse", the rationale being that domestic animals are not f…

It seems more likely to me that this has a human psychological cause, not a genetic cause.

I suggest that - if humans associate e.g. droopy ears with being more friendly, this creates a positive feedback loop whereby those animals with droopy ears receive more positive interactions, show less fear and are modestly more likely to be selected by Belyaev's research for breeding, all other things being equal. Human bias has become a "selection pressure".

This has no implication within genetics, neither genetics of the foxes nor genetics of the humans: it could simply be (increasingly) customary in society including Belyaev's. So, I strongly doubt any genetic cause.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#43

Post by unclenoriega »

dghughes wrote: post #29
sethammons wrote: post #20

This reminds me of some program I watched. They took wolves raised by people and dogs, and then, separately, placed the animal in near reach of food that was in a cage. The dogs eventually realized they could not get to the food and looked at people for help. The wolves never sought human intervention and continued trying to get at the food on their own.

I saw that too but I can't recall what it was Nature of Things on CBC perhaps or maybe NOVA on PBS. The two were OK up to a point but at a certain age the wolf dramatically changed compared to the puppy; it was uncontrollable.

> at a certain age the wolf dramatically changed compared to the puppy

That's a good way to put it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny#In_domestic_animals

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#44

Post by jamiek88 »

vrc wrote: post #38
acdanger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made the mistake of getting a Malamute puppy, sight-unseen, from a breeder who dropped him off one December day. The first year was fine. It was an incredibly handsome dog and a good companion on hikes. Sometime during the second year his independent nature became more and more pronounced. He also began to be more assertive around other dogs, sometimes even treating them as prey (it attacked one of my parents small…

As a former "kotzebue" mal owner, I completely understand your story. We had a golden before, and when we got our mal, we really didn't know what we were in for. It was actually odd, in that my parents, being from India, saw big dogs as "security" animals, so didn't spare the rod with the golden initially, and had to unlearn the tough love quickly through the obedience classes with him because he thrived on affection…

I identify with this story massively.

Particularly the attitude towards dogs. Dog is dog human is human and everyone is happier for knowing their place.

Dogs get babied a lot in the US and get very confused as to their role.

We get gushing admiration of how well 'trained' our dogs are. The dirty secret is they've had barely any conscious training from us, it is an attitude, energy, "I'm the leader here" approach that they respect and understand.

Dogs will train dogs too, if you have one older, well behaved dog the others will copy.

This goes very far, the copying, we had a new puppy who's only other dog to copy in the house was old and had gone deaf thus he didn't bark at random noises, even thunder and lightning he barely reacted to, walking past other barking dogs etc., no probs - he couldn't hear them!

The puppy copied this - she could hear of course but she saw the I didn't react, the older dog didn't react and we calmly continued thus that was what she did.

The older dog has now passed away (aged 16!) and she is the oldest dog aged 2 now, we have a 1 year old rescue we just got from the hurricanes here in Houston and he whilst skittish at first from mistreatment by humans (had to dock his tail someone had put a rubber band round it and cut the blood flow off, regrow all fur from mange) he picked up the way to act from the older dog and from us.

A third 'generation' displaying the behaviour started by a dog dead a year.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#45

Post by mannykannot »

learnstats2 wrote: post #42
bambax wrote: post #6

> something is deeply different in dog genes, or in how and when those genes become active, and scientists are trying to determine exactly what it is Darwin famously observed in the first chapter of On the Origin of Species that not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears . Darwin himself attributed it to "muscle misuse", the rationale being that domestic animals are not f…

It seems more likely to me that this has a human psychological cause, not a genetic cause. I suggest that - if humans associate e.g. droopy ears with being more friendly, this creates a positive feedback loop whereby those animals with droopy ears receive more positive interactions, show less fear and are modestly more likely to be selected by Belyaev's research for breeding, all other things being equal. Human bias…

That is an interesting reversal of the causality, though if selection is involved, there would be a genetic change in either case, so sorting out the cause could be difficult.

Do people see droopy ears as more friendly? I guess it indicates that the animal is not particularly alert, and so unlikely to be on the verge of aggression.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#46

Post by lizardwalk5 »

wallace_f wrote: post #7

Really interesting question, but to tread on constructive criticism in the age of struggling journalism: it started off great with a focused thesis, but maybe should have ended there. >When They Grow Up >And what are socialized wolves like when they grow up, once the mysterious genetic machinery of the dog and wolf direct them on their separate ways? This is the title of the last section, after some suspense from sta…

I agree. skimming down the article again, I feel about half way through the article starts to go down tangents (which are interesting points but maybe better covered in a book). it seemed like the premise was given that dogs are evolved from wolves so why do they behave so differently. at the end of the article I felt like the content did stray a bit from the reason the title got my attention.

that being said, I feel like the NYTimes in general is a strong news institution. perhaps this piece was more of a feature article given so many images were included and the video. and people love dogs so much maybe the editor(s) decided it was worth the cost to publish the story even though the researchers' answers are inconclusive so far.

so I agree with your critique of the article going off topic and so making the headline feel a bit misleading in the end. but I still strongly support the journalism that the NYTimes does (based on other articles read) and the need for strong investigative journalism in the news in general.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#47

Post by travmatt »

learnstats2 wrote: post #42
bambax wrote: post #6

> something is deeply different in dog genes, or in how and when those genes become active, and scientists are trying to determine exactly what it is Darwin famously observed in the first chapter of On the Origin of Species that not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears . Darwin himself attributed it to "muscle misuse", the rationale being that domestic animals are not f…

It seems more likely to me that this has a human psychological cause, not a genetic cause. I suggest that - if humans associate e.g. droopy ears with being more friendly, this creates a positive feedback loop whereby those animals with droopy ears receive more positive interactions, show less fear and are modestly more likely to be selected by Belyaev's research for breeding, all other things being equal. Human bias…

IIRC there’s an ongoing breeding program a Russian researcher is conducting with foxes - explicitly breeding the friendliest individuals.

In addition to the ears drooping, others morphological differences manifested - the friendliest animals had distinct coat patterns, curlier tails, and then later generations additionally showed shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw, and widened skull.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#49

Post by smnrchrds »

bambax wrote: post #6

> something is deeply different in dog genes, or in how and when those genes become active, and scientists are trying to determine exactly what it is Darwin famously observed in the first chapter of On the Origin of Species that not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears . Darwin himself attributed it to "muscle misuse", the rationale being that domestic animals are not f…

How do horses fit into this?

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#50

Post by glibgil »

smnrchrds wrote: post #49
bambax wrote: post #6

> something is deeply different in dog genes, or in how and when those genes become active, and scientists are trying to determine exactly what it is Darwin famously observed in the first chapter of On the Origin of Species that not one of our domestic animals can be named which has not in some country drooping ears . Darwin himself attributed it to "muscle misuse", the rationale being that domestic animals are not f…

How do horses fit into this?

They edit: ~~aren't~~ are barely domesticated. They are useful already in their wild form. They can be "broken" to recognize a dominate rider as their herd leader, but they have to always be tied or corralled. People are trained on how to approach horses, not vice-versa. Never approach a horse from behind.
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