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We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#41
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still young technology and the energy efficiency will improve with the lightning network or proof of stake or different concepts like filecoin. The societal gain from these technologies is potentially very large and will hopefully realign interests in the direction of saving the environment rather than bailing out businesses.. But the most sane definition of money is actually energy imo Also comparing the energy…

Right now a single transaction on the bitcoin network uses as much energy as powering 7 homes for a day. There's infrastructure costs, but Visa's network doesn't need that much to process a single POST request

Do you have a source on that ? It seems impressive !

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#42
post #28

And we got it. Wind power works, is cost effective, and scales well. Solar power works, is cost effective, and scales well. Battery storage works, is starting to be cost effective, and scales well. Fracking works, too, until that level of reserves runs out. Energy has moved down the priority list of problems.

No, now I have trouble finding English sources and I need to go in a while. But no wind power does not work in large scale in a electric system. The problem is that you need to have a lot of extra power and power electronics to stabilize the effect of wind power. It disturbs the frequency of the electricity in the network and you have to balance it with other sources you have complete control over to keep the power s…

Yet the UK peaked at 27% earlier this year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/06/07/uk-sets-new-r...

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#43
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole crypto-currency scene is increasingly seeming like a huge Ponzi scheme. I really wonder at what point popular opinion will no longer support wasting electrical power on mining a digital currency.

When the music stops, and hope of striking it rich dies...people are greedy and shortsighted in the aggregate.

In aggregate over long time (multiple generations), not so much. Genetics optimized a global equation after all.

The problem is that we might lack enough time for this to work.

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#44
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the music stops, and hope of striking it rich dies...people are greedy and shortsighted in the aggregate.

In aggregate over long time (multiple generations), not so much. Genetics optimized a global equation after all. The problem is that we might lack enough time for this to work.

True, given time and the resources to enjoy that time, we’re not monsters.

The problem is that we might lack enough time for this to work.

Alas... barring that miracle at least, and probably a few more like it.

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#45
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also comparing the energy cost of printing physical money with mining cryptocurrencies is favorable to CC's iirc. Really? Last I checked, taking the averaged of the top 10 most efficient mining setups, BitCoin network was pulling 9GW+. https://twitter.com/layoric/status/906087502414352384 Another model here showing 18 TWh annual usage, that's still an insane amount of power. https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-…

> Really? Last I checked, taking the averaged of the top 10 most efficient mining setups, BitCoin network was pulling 9GW+. And where is the comparison vs physical money? You know, with trucks moving around every day, and the cost of insurance, special facilities, salaries, etc...

I don't know of any data that isolates the energy cost of transport and storage of cash. Transactions are tricky, you could use the salary of the worker for the 5-15 seconds (or however long the handling/counting of cash takes) and equate that to cost of electricity.

Given a retail worker might cost a business $.03 per minute, you are looking at 1c per transaction. Now let's look at BTC. At 9GW when I looked at it, it was processing ~4.5, lets say 5, transactions per second. A kilo-watt-hour (kWh) of electricity will wholesale for 6c. If we are doing 5tx/s, that's 18000 in 1 hour. 9GWh to do 18000 transactions

(9,000,000,000) / (3600 * 5)

Gives us, 500 kWh per transaction, at 6c gives us $30 per transaction.

You might be able to argue subsequent cash handling might take a few minutes per transaction handles, but even so.

So given cash transactions save at least $20 per transaction, cost of transport and storage IMO would be negligable. These costs drop further with something like credit card transactions.

The two biggest problems I see with BitCoin and most PoW currencies (and I'm going to single out BitCoin) are;

1. BitCoin has a maximum transaction speed well below what is required for a world (or country/more localised) enconomy, 7 Tx/s doesn't cut it. VISA apparently does well over 1000+. 2. As mining gets harder, and as the network tries to reach the theoretical transaction speed limit, energy usage grows even more out of control.

9GW is such a massive amount of electricity at the moment. Even as solar + wind + storage becomes cheaper to build and capacities grow, it'll still be a huge amount of electricity and there usage by the BitCoin network will only grow. This is more electricity usage than the state of NSW in Australia _generates_ most of the time. That powers the residential and commercial electrical needs of a 1st world state with 7.5M people.

I think the more cheap power that is available to currencies like BTC, they'll keep using more and more with diminishing returns.

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#46
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the amount of money have to do with anything? If someone found a way to reduce the $20 trillion US deficit by 0.09%, and someone said that it’s not significant, would it rate the snarky “well, then send me a check for that amount”? Would you optimize a program by refactoring a function that used 0.09% of the execution time?

Yes, I often have done such refactoring. It's hard to get that last 20% of speed, much less last 5% without making a large number of small changes in code, usually after getting accumulated trace results (however presented.) .1% = one in one thousand. Keep stacking up those improvements and you do get somewhere, and often you'll easily find one hundred very small improvements in a day (10% altogether!) if it's green…

You’re doing a lot of hand waving: “One hundred small improvements in a day” That’s a lot of work in an 8-10 hour day...

“if it's green code,..”

My point is that you don’t start by looking for 0.09% improvements when you’re profiling your code.

As for climate change, we are looking for cleaner energy options. The world’s energy use is going to increase greatly as billions more come out of poverty. China, for example, is going to increase nuclear energy to be almost on par with the US over the next decade:

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/09/china-will-more-than-d...

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#48
post #14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption I beg to differ - currently just Bitcoin mining uses as much energy as country of Iceland - anything consuming energy on a scale of entire country (even small one yes) is environmentally significant.

“Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption 0.09%“ By definition 0.09% is not significant. Eliminating it would not significantly impact climate change.

I think 0.09% is mind blowing!

Think about it, almost a thousandth of world's electricity consumption completely wasted on BTC alone.

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#49
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent. Please send me a check for this insignificant amount, at current wholesale (business consumption) rates.

What does the amount of money have to do with anything? If someone found a way to reduce the $20 trillion US deficit by 0.09%, and someone said that it’s not significant, would it rate the snarky “well, then send me a check for that amount”? Would you optimize a program by refactoring a function that used 0.09% of the execution time?

[deleted]

Re: We Need an Energy Miracle (2015)

#50
post #41
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now a single transaction on the bitcoin network uses as much energy as powering 7 homes for a day. There's infrastructure costs, but Visa's network doesn't need that much to process a single POST request

Do you have a source on that ? It seems impressive !

It got shared a bit further down the thread:

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

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