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Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#41

Post by bildung »

charlesdm wrote: post #18
rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

The point is people usually get better objective results if you praise their relative effort.

Employers are obviously interested in grades that reflect the objective skill level of the to-be-employed.

The problem is people subconsciously build up explanations for their observed performance. If a kid routinely has a hard time with maths, its more probable that they develop a causal model that puts themselves in a static role: "I'm just not good at maths". What inter-subjective grading does is strengthening this belief: Imagine this kid learning really hard for a test, then still getting a bad grade. Lesson learned: Effort makes no difference.

What you want school to archieve is the exact opposite. You want to build up a mental model where the personal effort is the differentiator between good and bad results: "I just didn't learn well enough" instead of "I'm just bad at maths."

Grading that way makes it hard to assess objective performance, but it enables the kid to get nearer to his/her optimal performance.

(The opposite is probably more fitting for HN: Kids who didn't develop this model in school because they were "just good in maths" often didn't learn to learn and later have a hard time in college and beyond. Me included :))

Ideally schools would allow for both: Relative grading all the way up to the last school year, then a final test assessing objective performance. That way you maximize the development of a mental model of self-efficiacy while also allowing employers and universities to decide wheter the person is good enough for the position in question.

(I'm an educational scientist by trade)

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#42

Post by oldsklgdfth »

The most dangerous thing you can do for someone is set their expectations.

I think this is true for adults as well. Expectations add more pressure to meet a curtain performance that otherwise wouldn't be there. That along with a lack of solid stress coping mechanisms leads people to bend the rules.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#43

Post by gadders »

meshy wrote: post #15

This concept from Carol Dweck's research is core to Allison Kaptur's keynote at the New Zealand Python User Group in 2015 [0]. It's a good talk regarding the importance of having a growth mindset. If you prefer a written version, it's available on Allison Kaptur's website[1]. Previous discussion [2]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcc6JEhDSpo [1]: http://akaptur.com/blog/2015/10/10/effective-learning-strate...…

I think it's a helpful idea, but have her results been replicated ever?

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#44

Post by dragonwriter »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #29
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

That's insane. When I "make an effort" to pay a parking ticket on time and I don't, nobody gives me a shiny sticker star - I have to pay double instead. EDIT: People, I said nothing about children paying parking tickets or about poor people. My comment is an example of a self-inflicted problem that is exacerbated by self-inflicted delay, to which the consequences must be borne by the individual as is the nature of li…

Whether unsuccessful effort is productive is a very different question to whether praise for effort, even when unsuccessful, is beneficial in developing productive habits.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#45

Post by b3lvedere »

tertius wrote: post #32
b3lvedere wrote: post #9

A couple of weeks ago someone introduced me to the idea not only asking your kids if everything is ok, but also ask what went wrong or failed. At first i was a little afraid asking my kids those kind of things, but until now their reaction has been quite positive.

Good idea. Source?

The source is a bit complex. :)

I listen to this daily podcast called The Morning Stream ( http://frogpants.com/tms/ ). On thursdays they got a segment called Theraphy Thursdays ( https://therapythursdays.com/about/). It came up a few weeks ago in this segment.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#46

Post by whistlerbrk »

A major rule in parenting is to praise effort and hard work which strengthens the 'internal locus of control' as opposed to seeing some positive action and then commenting on how smart they are. People view 'smarts' as something binary, you are or you aren't and therefore you are strengthening the external locus of control. Eventually when smarts aren't enough, and additional progress requires grit, those who were praised for their determination will excel, because they know it is within them. Others who were told they were smart will hate themselves for not being as smart as they thought. So goes the theory.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#47

Post by fahadkhan »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #29
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

That's insane. When I "make an effort" to pay a parking ticket on time and I don't, nobody gives me a shiny sticker star - I have to pay double instead. EDIT: People, I said nothing about children paying parking tickets or about poor people. My comment is an example of a self-inflicted problem that is exacerbated by self-inflicted delay, to which the consequences must be borne by the individual as is the nature of li…

Interestingly, in the London, UK at least, demonstrating that you made an effort to pay a parking ticket but were not able to will normally mean you do not have to pay the fine.

For instance, I was fined for not displaying a parking ticket. But I took a picture of the machine that wasn't able to process my payment. I emailed picture to the appeals process and was forgiven the fine. Which essentially meant I got to park for free (shiny sticker)

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#48

Post by inZGBl »

rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

I think that's probably more personality than anything else. I was always told I was smart and was never motivated. Perfect example: I took the ACT only once because I scored a 30 and it wasn't worth it for me to try to improve that score. Meanwhile, all of my honors & AP class friends took it several times scoring 33s, 34s, & 35s.

This was a direct result of my "intelligence complex" and yet I have no trouble learning new things. I actually get extremely bored if I'm not digging in depth into new subjects every 6-9 months. Speaks to why I have several unfinished websites because I wanted to learn a new framework, unused golf clubs, tons of cooking utensils but no food, etc.

I love to learn, I just never learned how to be motivated or competitive or persistent.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#49

Post by charlesdm »

icebraining wrote: post #37
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

OTOH, if a kid makes a lot of effort and still fails, is the kid to blame or the teachers? Isn't their job (and of the parents, I suppose) to guide those efforts in a productive direction?

That's the question now, is it? It depends?

I had some horrible teachers in high school (one IT and physics teacher comes to mind). Most people flunked both subjects. I passed both, but only because I liked both subjects and had some affinity for them.

But he was definitely to blame: he understood the subject matter well, but was horrible at teaching and arrogant about it. I think they fired him a few years later.

If you have 85-90% of students failing your subject, something is probably wrong with the teaching (or the subject matter is too hard).

I think any kid should at least be able to pass a subject if he is of average intelligence + puts in some effort. Not too hard, but not too easy either. But perhaps also account for the fact that some people will always be horrible in one or two subjects.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#50

Post by marcosdumay »

icebraining wrote: post #37
charlesdm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of both is probably good. For example: in Belgium, in recent years a lot of kids are (often) given points for effort so they can pass a certain grade. More and more the case. I talked to a teacher friend about this, and while he thinks its great, I think it's ridiculous. Do we want a society of people who put in some effort yet achieve nothing? Now, not that I think the educational system shouldn't be flexible…

OTOH, if a kid makes a lot of effort and still fails, is the kid to blame or the teachers? Isn't their job (and of the parents, I suppose) to guide those efforts in a productive direction?

Or is it an environmental issue, or are you simply teaching him the wrong subject, or the right subject at the wrong time? Or are you measuring it wrong, so he should have succeed, but you mislabeled him?
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