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Bitcoin's Golden Future

bloomberg.com

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Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#41

Post by sbenitoj »

ballenf wrote: post #37
sbenitoj wrote: post #31

"There are two main reasons to doubt bitcoin's viability as an investment....Another is more philosophical: Digital currencies have no fundamental value, so have no place in a portfolio." There is no such thing as an objective theory of value. ALL value is subjective (meaning each person values the same thing differently). The more you learn about what money is, the more you realize that there are qualities of money…

The article does a surprisingly good job of addressing this issue as well: > What, though, is the value of a digital currency? > It's a fair question, but one that could equally be leveled at gold. Since Richard Nixon ended the fixed $35 an ounce convertibility of gold in 1971, its value has risen at times (the 1970s, the 2000s) and fallen at others. The best argument to justify investing in gold these days is not th…

Agreed - for an article in MSM, I was surprised it wasn't completely terrible!

But I'm tired of the BS line that "gold has no value" continues to be repeated as nauseam. If people value it, then it has value. If people don't, then it doesn't. End of story. Things don't have value because some Minister of Value makes a proclamation about what has value and what doesn't (USSR tried that, didn't work!)

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#42

Post by rubin55 »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #12
imaginenore wrote: post #5

"Digital currencies have no fundamental value" That argument never made any sense to me. What's the fundamental value of $1? People assign value to all things based on how desirable they are (the demand). There are rare exceptions, like when a government ties their national currency to something like the dollar, but that immediately creates a black market, where it trades for its real value, and because of that, the…

The fundamental value of $1 is the full faith and credit of the United States Government and the economy of America. The fundamental value of cryptocurrencies is a shared agreement of value amongst investors. I imagine some snotty 14-year old would argue that there is no fundamental distinction between the two but that's not being economically serious.

Yes. Thousand times this. Thank you!

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#43

Post by Double_a_92 »

imaginenore wrote: post #32
kpommerenke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental value of $1 is $1, since it allows you to pay off $1 of your tax liability to the U.S. government.

Ok, then the fundamental value of 1BTC is 1BTC, since it allows you to pay of 1BTC of any liability to whoever accepts Bitcoin.

> to whoever accepts Bitcoin

That's the difference.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#44

Post by sbenitoj »

_xnmw wrote: post #40
sbenitoj wrote: post #31

"There are two main reasons to doubt bitcoin's viability as an investment....Another is more philosophical: Digital currencies have no fundamental value, so have no place in a portfolio." There is no such thing as an objective theory of value. ALL value is subjective (meaning each person values the same thing differently). The more you learn about what money is, the more you realize that there are qualities of money…

>Bitcoin is a serious threat to that because unlike gold, it is orders of magnitude more difficult for governments to confiscate and control. Nonsense. Nothing stops China from seizing all of the largest bitcoin mining operations tomorrow, and building some additional miners to conduct a 51% attack. They would then effectively control the network. Bitcoin is actually easier to control than fiat currency or gold becau…

This is a common misconception, the Bitcoin network would not be harmed by governments seizing control of Bitcoin mining operations, there are many options in such of an event. All seizing mining would do is prove how resilient Bitcoin is to government efforts and further decentralize the currency. Also, implicit in your statement is the belief that miners control the network, which is not true. They're an important part of the ecosystem, but they don't control the network (if they did, the blocksize would've increased a long time ago and there probably never would've been a fork).

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#45

Post by VarFarYonder »

imaginenore wrote: post #5

"Digital currencies have no fundamental value" That argument never made any sense to me. What's the fundamental value of $1? People assign value to all things based on how desirable they are (the demand). There are rare exceptions, like when a government ties their national currency to something like the dollar, but that immediately creates a black market, where it trades for its real value, and because of that, the…

It could be argued that cryptocurrencies' value is their ability to store value and to act as a medium of exchange.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#46

Post by Double_a_92 »

smokeyj wrote: post #38
delegate wrote: post #6

Bitcoin and other crypto require a well functioning internet infrastructure, otherwise it's just data on a hard-drive. Disconnect a country from the Internet (or filter the traffic) and you're forking the chain. Spend on both networks by buying other (unfiltered) crypto. There are states (even large ISPs) that can do that. Also, the first thing to go in case of global conflict is the global Internet. Countries will t…

Bitcoin is global. If you want to be sure your transaction is on the longest chain you can just wait for more confirmations. You could even receive confirmations over satellite now. > I guess my point is: be careful, this is still very much experimental, don't invest everything you have in them. Also experimental: Central banking and fiat currency. The lifetime of these non-crypto backed coins isn't that great either…

> Also they tend to be devalued in times of war.

Yeah, a currency that strongly depends on a stable and free internet is much better in times of war. /s

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#47

Post by jules »

imaginenore wrote: post #5

"Digital currencies have no fundamental value" That argument never made any sense to me. What's the fundamental value of $1? People assign value to all things based on how desirable they are (the demand). There are rare exceptions, like when a government ties their national currency to something like the dollar, but that immediately creates a black market, where it trades for its real value, and because of that, the…

The fundamental value of the dollar is that it can be used to not go to prison for tax evasion. That is something that many people want to do. Bitcoin has no such anchor.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#48

Post by Goronmon »

imaginenore wrote: post #35
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental value of $1 is the full faith and credit of the United States Government and the economy of America. The fundamental value of cryptocurrencies is a shared agreement of value amongst investors. I imagine some snotty 14-year old would argue that there is no fundamental distinction between the two but that's not being economically serious.

I'd argue more, according to your definitions, the "fundamental value" of the dollar (which you conveniently didn't specify) relies on violence (as in, pay up of guys with guns will put you in prison). Whereas the fundamental value of Bitcoin is determined by the free market. It's quite clear to me which one is a more moral system. Again, based on your own definitions.

I'd argue more, according to your definitions, the "fundamental value" of the dollar (which you conveniently didn't specify) relies on violence (as in, pay up of guys with guns will put you in prison). Whereas the fundamental value of Bitcoin is determined by the free market.

It's quite clear to me which one is a more moral system.

It's not really clear to me how this word salad you've thrown out is supposed to be an actual argument.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#49

Post by rugffgbv »

ISL wrote: post #30
rugffgbv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only it's slow, but transaction fees are ridiculously high. $4.3 currently. I go to shop and pay $0.5 for 2kg of potatoes (or a bottle of beer), and pay $4.3 fee, and wait 1 hour for confirmations?

If you make a consumer trade with Fidelity, the trading fee is $5. For better or worse, Bitcoin has evolved into a financial-scale product, no longer something one would use to buy $0.50 of potatoes. (P.S. $0.50 for 2kg of potatoes or a bottle of beer? both of those are a great deal)

I think future cryptocurrency will need to be very scalable, zero fees and instantaneous. At least capable of handling VISA traffic. Ideally something good enough for microtransactions, sending $0.001.

So far I've heard about IOTA and Lightning Network.

In Europe bank transfers are free. I often send $1 or $2 to roommate bank account for something from refrigerator. Also in shop I pay $2 with VISA card.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#50

Post by imaginenore »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #43
imaginenore wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then the fundamental value of 1BTC is 1BTC, since it allows you to pay of 1BTC of any liability to whoever accepts Bitcoin.

> to whoever accepts Bitcoin That's the difference.

Yes, in your case it's "whoever accepts the dollar".

Huge difference /s

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