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6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

fivethirtyeight.com

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Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#41

Post by Pica_soO »

erikb wrote: post #39
ganomi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that irritates me about the political terminology in the US is the use of the word 'socialist' which often comes across as an insult. In my opinion there are big differences between beeing 'social' and beeing "socialistic". [0] The big german party SPD and even Die Linke rather fall into the category social than socialist. [0] https://spfaust.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/socialism-vs-social...

Yes, also hard to express for me. Die Linke of course is not just social, but really socialist, as in pre-communist. The SPD itself also started out as the socialist-like-communist party in its very early days. Then it became a social-but-not-socialist party, and now it's hard to define any political agenda for them. Of course your direct political rival is associated with the devil, but for Germany Russia is even a…

I would not compare die Linke with the KPD.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#42

Post by erikb »

pjc50 wrote: post #20
erikb wrote: post #19

A few points from a German: It is not true that the Left is more liberal. They are more socialist, which is simply not listed in these article's diagrams. A strong socialist pariticipation in Germany results from a huge part of it being under Soviet control for a few decades. It is also not true that neither top party has aimed at the social system. Both actually do try to minimize it. But they frame it into pro-soci…

> It is not true that the Left is more liberal. They are more socialist, which is simply not listed in these article's diagrams This is an important point which trying to ram non-US political parties into a US-based single left-right spectrum does not account for. Another important distinction which people miss is "Islam" (the religion) vs "Islamism" (its involvement in politics).

Yes, in Germany left means Socialist, right means Fascist, and the differentiation between conservatism and progressiveness is actually something you can find in each of the corners. I also believe that Germany is not the only country like that. E.g. I have just finished watching season 3 of the tv show Narcos and it seems to me as if in Colombia this distinction also exists and it is enforced even stronger, with the liberal power being in government, and both left socialist and right fascist parties being military forces on the outskirts (considering the ability to kill as a political power as well).

I agree that there is a distinction between Islam and Islamism. However I wouldn't say one is political the other religious. In the same way we can't put German parties on a US spectrum, we can't put Islam on a Christian spectrum. For Islam politics and religion are not two separate topics. It's one topic. If there's a distinction for Muslims it is for other factors, which I sadly don't know however. (If a Muslim reads it feel free to educate me on that part. I'm certainly interested)

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#44

Post by Semaphor »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #26

What about the Pirate Party? I hoped I'd see Piratenpartei Deutschland in the elections...

They essentially killed themselves. First, there was the step to have a stance on everything, which a, IIRC small but don't take my word for it, majority wanted and they lost the people who supported them for their core values. Added to that lots and lots of internal strife and they became irrelevant, sadly.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#45

Post by majewsky »

readittwice wrote: post #32

I will probably get down-voted for that, but personally I do think that the AfD adds value to the democratic system in Germany. In my whole life I haven't experienced a single other topic that's so controversial and influential as the whole immigration/refugee-crisis. Merkel gets criticized a lot for her open-border policy, but actually in Germany her party is still the most-restrictive in this regard except for the…

> I do think that the AfD adds value to the democratic system in Germany.

Agreed. I dislike them and their views just as much as the next leftist, but they represent the opinions of a (small but) significant share of the German populace, and these ought to be represented by parliament proportionally.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#46

Post by pjc50 »

vim_wannabe wrote: post #16
lyschoening wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalist movements regularly combine widely accepted populist left-wing positions with xenophobic ideas (and proceed to disregard the left-wing ones once in power). I live in Denmark; the Danish People's Party here is also very left-wing on niche social issues and uses that to trick people into voting for them. Trump used this strategy so well that you had followers of Bernie Sanders switching allegiances to vote…

Out of interest, how is a cap on immigration xenophobic? Is the mere introduction of a cap xenophobic? Or is there some set limit on the cap you could have, below which you are xenophobic? I know the answer is probably 'X type of people want this cap on immigration, therefore the cap on immigration is X-ist!', but just wanted to make sure.

Because the cap is arbitary. It says that no matter what kind of person someone is and whether they are a partner or relative of someone who is already a national or legal resident, they are not allowed residence.

It gets even worse if you apply an immigration cap to refugees and asylum seekers as well, at which point you're saying that the arbitary immigration cap is potentially more important than their survival.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#47

Post by pjc50 »

tajen wrote: post #4
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #2

The language used to describe AfD is strikingly similar to the one used to describe Trump supporters prior to the elections. The truth is, the influx of immigrants is a real problem in Germany, although in some places is felt more than in others. Normal people turn to AfD for help, not because they're aggressive or hateful. It's difficult to even have a civilized discussion about it without being labelled as "racist"…

Yes. No party proposes a reduction of massive Muslim immigration, except this one. The fact that everyone categorizes anything that discusses immigration as "extreme-right" or "alt-right" doesn't help. Worse, it doesn't help diagnosing: I'm yet to see a good explanation by Democrats of why Trump got 62m votes (whether that's the majority or not isn't relevant, it's still 62m votes for a spoiled child), beyond "They'r…

> are there still British people in London

This is the stupidest thing I've seen on HN today.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#48

Post by wolfgke »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #26

What about the Pirate Party? I hoped I'd see Piratenpartei Deutschland in the elections...

> What about the Pirate Party? I hoped I'd see Piratenpartei Deutschland in the elections...

It is in the elections, cf. for example

> https://www.merkur.de/politik/bundestagswahl-2017-diese-part...

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#49

Post by majewsky »

VladTheImplier wrote: post #12
lyschoening wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalist movements regularly combine widely accepted populist left-wing positions with xenophobic ideas (and proceed to disregard the left-wing ones once in power). I live in Denmark; the Danish People's Party here is also very left-wing on niche social issues and uses that to trick people into voting for them. Trump used this strategy so well that you had followers of Bernie Sanders switching allegiances to vote…

They are voted into the Bundestag, where they must represent what they signed off to represent. You can't just 180 from what you defined as your goals, or the Verfassungsschutz can fuck a party over. Honestly, read their Election program. They have many things in common with even the left parties, like SPD and Die Linke. They are for the minimum wage, they want to extend unemployment benefits to be combined with the…

> You can't just 180 from what you defined as your goals

Of course you can. You're working off the bizarre assumption that a party manifesto is binding in any way whatsoever.

One of the most famous instances is in 2005, when the SPD went into the election with "no sales tax increases", and CDU advocated for "2% sales tax increase". In the end, they formed a coalition, and arrived at the compromise of 3% increase.

Re: 6 charts to help Americans understand the upcoming German elections

#50

Post by majewsky »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #26

What about the Pirate Party? I hoped I'd see Piratenpartei Deutschland in the elections...

They're technically competing, in the same way that dozens of small parties are technically competing. That ship has sailed. (Pun not intended.)
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