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Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

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Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#41

Post by mulmen »

abrown28 wrote: post #30
mulmen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also provided a platform to legitimize creationism by debating it as if it is a valid explanation of how the world came to be. I understand the desire to promote debate but I think he fell into the false balance trap. He did a great deal to advance STEM in the millennial generation which should not be understated but nobody is faultless. He is a great educator but I question if he really knows how best to use his…

a) The debate is happening whether Bill Nye takes part or not. b) If proponents of proposition A are unwilling to debate proponents of proposition B then proponents of A will be look like they don't believe in their proposition. You need to be willing to defend your beliefs. c) Debating someone does not legitimize their proposition. I believe you are legitimizing their proposition if you refuse to debate them.

You're falling in to the same trap I think Bill Nye fell into. There are not always precisely two equally valid opinions. Forcing debate to fit the assumption that exactly two perspectives are equally valid perpetuates the creation of baseless theories for the purpose of debate itself. See: cable news.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#42

Post by mulmen »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #27
mulmen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also provided a platform to legitimize creationism by debating it as if it is a valid explanation of how the world came to be. I understand the desire to promote debate but I think he fell into the false balance trap. He did a great deal to advance STEM in the millennial generation which should not be understated but nobody is faultless. He is a great educator but I question if he really knows how best to use his…

You're just as far in the opposite direction, though. When people have strange beliefs, the best way to deal with the situation is usually to talk to them on the same level, as grownups with valid beliefs. Otherwise you change no one's mind. If we dig through your brain, we'd probably turn up a few questionable beliefs of your own. Most people just aren't that transparent.

I'm not saying we should refuse to debate in all cases. There are not always exactly two sides and just because someone comes up with a crazy idea does not mean we should spend energy arguing with them.

Yes, talking and educating people is an important endeavor and one that Bill Nye has proven to be well suited. However, education and debate are not the same thing and it is easy to legitimize dangerous ideas by putting them on an equal footing with proven concepts in the context of a debate.

I have all kinda of crazy beliefs, many that I probably can't even identify myself. That doesn't mean I should waste an expert's time with debate.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#43

Post by JackFr »

john_moscow wrote: post #38

The stock market in general is moving in a strange direction in the past decade. •First the dividends became the thing of the past as the companies argued that stock buybacks are more tax-efficient. The general public accepted it. •Then the earnings per share disappeared and loss per share became standard. The argumentation was that it's better to invest in growth today and figure out profitability "some other day".…

I don't think you're completely correct about EPS in the broader market, (but correct in the headline names). The rest I agree with completely. What's surprising to me is that there wasn't some sort of retrenchment after the 2007-8 crisis.

I agree with your analysis about the agency problem, but I also see the it as too much money chasing too few assets. Ever desperate for return, money managers will chase anything that has a return, whether it's rational or not.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#44

Post by ringaroundthetx »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #35
JackFr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existing securities laws didn't develop in a vacuum - they were a response to real problems in capital markets. Receiving something tradeable presupposes a counter party to trade with. Those likely will be in short supply once you've bought a lemon. A secondary market which eschews many of the practices of the established markets vis a vis investor protections, and relies on information discovery and reputation, even…

FYI, you're arguing with someone who literally believes investor protections aren't necessary for liquid investments [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15134630

thats not what that says

what people tolerate has nothing to do with my "literal beliefs"

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#45

Post by KGIII »

abrown28 wrote: post #39
KGIII wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, at some point debate becomes futile. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I agree you will almost never debate your opponent into a different point of view but you can change the beliefs of the audience sometimes. For instance I don't mind if you change your opinion on the merit of debating creationists but I'm hoping to sway anyone else that reads this to my point of view.

Yeah, at some point I no longer have time or energy for that. I wish you luck, though!

You may be able to change some audience views but you're more dedicated than I. I've tried reason. I am a scientist. I have explained scientific method and had so many bizarre responses that I guess I've just learned to not engage when people demonstrate willful ignorance.

Honestly, it's not even always from the people you expect. Not that long ago, someone was telling me that sea levels were going to rise by 54' by 2050 and that it was 'a proven science fact.' I gave them a whole bunch of data and citations but I'm a mathematician and not a climate scientist - thus they decided I was an uninformed liar and declared themselves the victor.

I was pretty baffled by that one, actually. I'm really certain that AGW is a serious problem. I'm also really certain the sea isn't going to rise that much by 2050. I know, because I read the research and understand it well enough.

I don't know... Maybe I'm jaded and disillusioned.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#46

Post by JackFr »

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #21
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> equity companies (or at least, purchases of their private equity) are going to go the way of the dinosaur Source?

This year the source is the collective conscious that sees and uses the alternative ways of raising or transmitting capital, who can tolerate the lack of consumer and investor protections because of the immediate liquidity benefits allowing them to manage risk There is no dissertation on it, at best you'll find some charts showing side by side comparisons of what you get with the antiquated share company - a technolo…

> the immediate liquidity benefits allowing them to manage risk

Sure, everyone loves liquidity and anyone can manage risk in an orderly two-sided market.

If there is 1) no legitimate profit-making endeavor backing your security & 2) no current bid, your security is worth exactly $0. You have faith that we needn't worry about (1) because (2) will never happen. I don't.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#47

Post by csomar »

JackFr wrote: post #43
john_moscow wrote: post #38

The stock market in general is moving in a strange direction in the past decade. •First the dividends became the thing of the past as the companies argued that stock buybacks are more tax-efficient. The general public accepted it. •Then the earnings per share disappeared and loss per share became standard. The argumentation was that it's better to invest in growth today and figure out profitability "some other day".…

I don't think you're completely correct about EPS in the broader market, (but correct in the headline names). The rest I agree with completely. What's surprising to me is that there wasn't some sort of retrenchment after the 2007-8 crisis. I agree with your analysis about the agency problem, but I also see the it as too much money chasing too few assets. Ever desperate for return, money managers will chase anything t…

We are still too early in the bubble cycle. The returns are higher every year but they are linear. Wait until the public comes (free money?) and discover this; and then you get a parabolic market run and a subsequent crash.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#48

Post by csomar »

jacobolus wrote: post #29
matthewmacleod wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a weak-ass article you’ve cited there which does little more than make some vague accusations with little evidence. Frankly this looks more like a typical case of a celebrity endorsement without enough research - which is bad, but I’d argue far less serious than the accusations you’re making.

This author’s every post is vacuous clickbait for angry right-wingers, https://thefederalist.com/author/danielpayne/ “Trump Spoke Truth About ‘Both Sides’ In Charlottesville, And The Media Lost Their Minds” “If We’re Tearing Down White Supremacy, Start With Planned Parenthood” “If Google Fires Anyone Over Stereotyping, It Should Be The Employees Who Stayed Home To Cry Over A Memo” “Dear Climate Alarmists: Now That Th…

Please no ad-hominem. You should only discuss his article in question.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#49

Post by Analemma_ »

csomar wrote: post #48
jacobolus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This author’s every post is vacuous clickbait for angry right-wingers, https://thefederalist.com/author/danielpayne/ “Trump Spoke Truth About ‘Both Sides’ In Charlottesville, And The Media Lost Their Minds” “If We’re Tearing Down White Supremacy, Start With Planned Parenthood” “If Google Fires Anyone Over Stereotyping, It Should Be The Employees Who Stayed Home To Cry Over A Memo” “Dear Climate Alarmists: Now That Th…

Please no ad-hominem. You should only discuss his article in question.

That is not what ad-hominem means. When you are evaluating the reliability of a source, it is perfectly legitimate to look at what that source has produced in the past and see if it holds up.

Re: Rayton Solar: Legitimate Investment or Scam?

#50

Post by rgbrenner »

mulmen wrote: post #24
ScottBurson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon of the requisite purity is not just lying around. Purifying it takes a significant amount of energy, which puts a floor under the price.

Energy prices have fallen continually through human history. As our demand for energy increases we find better and better ways of harnessing available energy. This wafer technology itself could lead to reducing energy costs to a point where silicon refinement becomes economical for the production of further wafers. The availability of Silicon is not a limitation energy prices are.

energy for industrial use costs more today than it did in 1960: https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/showtext.php?t=p...
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