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Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

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Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#41

Post by dahdum »

IgorPartola wrote: post #40
kristianp wrote: post #30

So what kind of deliberate practice is required to become a highly skilled developer? Not just to know a language and library. Code kata used be a thing years ago.

IMO code katas are a waste of time. Practically speaking, prolific development means getting large chunks of the system done quickly, and the best way to do that is to reuse what others have done. Don't code your CSS from scratch, use Bootstrap or similar. Don't create an auth system, use the one that comes with your framework. Counterintuitively, don't automate all the things until that automation is sure to pay off…

"Katas are the same problem solved in different environments."

Are you sure about that? I thought it was more solving the problem, then solving it again more efficiently / differently in the same environment. Like using recursion the second time around, not changing languages.

"Don't code your CSS from scratch, use Bootstrap or similar. Don't create an auth system, use the one that comes with your framework."

Definitely true for productivity, but a lot to be gained in experience by knowing how to roll your own.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#42

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

kristianp wrote: post #30

So what kind of deliberate practice is required to become a highly skilled developer? Not just to know a language and library. Code kata used be a thing years ago.

Regularly solve problems! Try making minimal implementations of things you're interested in. I've implemented toy versions of lots of things just to learn how they work.

I always start off thinking it'll be easy, and every single time I'm amazed by the number of details and edge cases involved. It's usually where you'll get exposed to more interesting algorithms, since most applications are able to leverage libraries which usually hides the magic.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#43

Post by djg3 »

adrice727 wrote: post #15

One of the books that has had the biggest influence in my life is "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, the child chess prodigy of "Searching for Bobby Fischer" fame. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performa...

My experience was the complete opposite. I genuinely do not understand why this book is recommended. It's been years since I've read it but whenever i see it recommended it irritates me. Especially as people who do never list anything of actual significance that's to do with learning, other than clichés.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#44

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

jinfiesto wrote: post #16
brianwawok wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a slightly different topic.. but from what a lot in the running field think, its all about how fast your body recovers. There are 10,000 amazing marathoners in the world. If you gave them all the same training, they would all be absurdly good, as they got better and better. But 9,990 or so of them would get injured and wash out. So it seems at least in some sports, your limiter is not how genetically gifted you…

I'm not convinced that the recovery is genetic (well it is, but that's not the point.) People give themselves repetitive motion injuries in music all the time. It causes tons of otherwise amazing musicians to wash out. It's become such a problem, that it's basically become the biggest issue the pedagogy community as a whole is actively trying to address. This is interesting, because there has been a lot of progress m…

ansolutely. an expert knows the most efficient motions from refining inefficient ones or from a coach who can spot issues. inefficient motions create repetitive use injuries.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#45

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

bsder wrote: post #23
jinfiesto wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced that the recovery is genetic (well it is, but that's not the point.) People give themselves repetitive motion injuries in music all the time. It causes tons of otherwise amazing musicians to wash out. It's become such a problem, that it's basically become the biggest issue the pedagogy community as a whole is actively trying to address. This is interesting, because there has been a lot of progress m…

> It's become such a problem, that it's basically become the biggest issue the pedagogy community as a whole is actively trying to address. This is interesting, because there has been a lot of progress made in injury-preventive technique. Could you please give me some references for this? Guitar has loads of famous people who encourage people to do things that will cause injuries. Having some actual research to fight…

Jerome Lowenthal, the pianist and pedagogue has focal distonia, and speaks about it in his teaching. Opera singers get vocal nodes from incorrect use or overuse of the vocal chords... musicians often turn to Pilates, Feldenkreis, or other techniques- but mostly it is about finding the posture that is the most natural and the motion that is most efficient. Cellists have special orchestral chairs, and violinists use better and better chin and shoulder rests these days- all in service to this.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#47

Post by sah2ed »

roceasta wrote: post #37
JamesBarney wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right. What separates the average from the good is practice. What separates the good from the great is something different.

My guess is that 'low-latent inhibition' plus a great memory plus long practice make for mastery. http://www.lowlatentinhibition.org/what-is-lli/ (And those who force themselves to practice are going to get injuries like repetitive strain which are really a kind of 'inner rebellion' against this forcing.)

Never heard of LLI as lying on a spectrum that includes OCD, ADHD etc so thank you for that link.

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#48

Post by raverbashing »

rednum wrote: post #28
GregBuchholz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mention of deliberate practice prompted me reinvestigate the guy who was doing the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to become a golf pro. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, he did get to 10,000 hours, but it doesn't seem like it panned out. Anyone have further sources of information? http://thedanplan.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer)

He did not get to the 10,000 hours, he had to quit after 6,000 due to back injury. Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/08/the-dan-p...

Survivor bias seems to be a thing in Pro Sports

Not everybody can get to 10k hours without getting hurt and/or managing to work through it

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#49

Post by swsieber »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #33
danblick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mentioned both deliberate practice and 10,000 hours: are you familiar with Anders Ericsson's criticism of the 10,000 hours idea? Do you think it's still a concept worth talking about?

I liked Gladwell's response, that 10,000 hours was never intended as the goal it turned into. Rather, it was intended as an order of magnitude. More than that however, it was intended to call attention to the support structure being expert requires. I.E. nobody can get 10,000 hours in on their own.

This. I'm listening to Outliers right now (where he builds up that concept). I can understand how people think Gladwell is a load of crap... if you focus on his points out of context. It was never "get 10,000 hrs and you'll be an expert", but instead "once you get to a certain level of talent/innate ability, it's deliberate practice that makes the difference."

Re: Mental processes of chess masters revealed how people become experts (2016) [pdf]

#50

Post by posterboy »

brianwawok wrote: post #13
tunesmith wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a recent HN discussion on it, I believe - I think he got to around 6,000 hours, and was doing really well at golf actually, but then injuries started happening.

Maybe a slightly different topic.. but from what a lot in the running field think, its all about how fast your body recovers. There are 10,000 amazing marathoners in the world. If you gave them all the same training, they would all be absurdly good, as they got better and better. But 9,990 or so of them would get injured and wash out. So it seems at least in some sports, your limiter is not how genetically gifted you…

> genetically gifted

No need to narrow this down to genetics. Just say "how fast you recover", thanks.

I mean, unless you give specific insights into how detrimental slack after training and superb wound healing are directly genetically correlated, you might as well not mention it.

Edit: Also, you seem to presuppose a benefit from wounding. I do doubt that.

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