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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#41
Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan:

1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a specialty you want to end up with first.

2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be reasonably be accomplished in that time. Make sure it's part of a hot trend because the time spent is probably the same regardless.

2b) In parallel, network and build the best quality contacts you can in your target area. Blog about any interesting observations made as the project progresses. Come right out and say in your posts that you are doing this in hopes of building skills, experience, and proof of your abilities, and say where you want to end up.

3) When its done, make it public online make sure it presents with visual appeal and with cogent explanations. Ask for feedback from your contacts, because that's your excuse to show off: "sure was challenging but I was able to go from zero to learning and building this in three months!". Ask for feedback because it's your chance to ask about openings and interviews. Ask for feedback because you really will need it.

How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#42

Most coding bootcamps are a complete waste of money. Ever since I launched https://edabit.com , I've noticed a ton of traffic coming from these bootcamps and I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, I like the free promotion but on the other, I can't help but feel as though these people are getting ripped off (considering they can access the site for free).

Bootcamp dropout, here. I 100% agree.

I left The Starter League after the first semester when I realized the buyer's remorse of paying more per day than tuition at MIT. The prices for bootcamps simply aren't worth it, especially given the numerous online and self-paced options out there... many of which are free. How my story ended: I left the bootcamp and took a few Udacity Nanodegree programs for $200/month and (full disclosure) loved them so much that I applied for and got a job at Udacity. I really flourished in the self-paced environment, and found that I was able to learn a lot more, faster. Now, I get to go to work every day and build systems that provide affordable education for students across the globe.

There are so many amazing and cheaper options out there, and I cringe when I hear about people dropping $15k+ for the same (or better) content that they can get for 100x to INF-x cheaper.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#43
I think traditional education, university, has a lot of flaws. But I also think one reason college/university has been around for a "long" time is that the system has merit. That merit in my mind being grading rigor, deadlines, classmates, and office hours.

I haven't done a bootcamp, but I've done quite a few MOOC courses so my opinion is based on equating the two. This might not be a valid assumption.

To me, MOOCs and I'd imagine Bootcamps are good to get an intro to something new, but they can't replace rigorous study of a defined base of fundamentals...i.e. a course of study.

What seems like a real opportunity are programs like OSU post-bacc in comp sci, and GA Tech comp sci masters. I've been toying with OSU for about 2 years now, and haven't commited to it yet because they don't have some of the courses online that I'd like to take (computer graphics). And I haven't done the masters program at Tech yet because I don't want to get into that without a more solid foundation. To me, more schools with post-bacc in comp sci and expanded course offerings (online) would find themselves flooded with demand. Recently I signed up at UCLA Extensions...It is almost the right thing, but still has a limited offering and isn't quite the right fit.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#44

Good riddance. Once recruiters figured out that placing these under qualified people into jobs was not a good thing, the bootcamps started to train people how to fake their resumes. Just like how people figured out that if they want a specific job, they only need to update their resume to include all the keywords in the job description. When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show 'proj…

>>When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show 'projects' completed on them as if they were real work. You have to start somewhere, right? Those projects may not be "real" work but they may be enough to have given the candidate exposure to various problem domains and experience in solving problems using code, which should really be sufficient if you are hiring entry-level devs. I mean w…

The difference between the projects you do on your weekends and projects a code school student completes are absolutely immense.

An applicant with strong weekend projects implies:

- They have a passion for building software

- They are self directed learners

- They have the initiative and determination to build things and ship them

- They managed to navigate problems without having an instructor hold their hand

- They actually did the work, and aren't taking credit for a group effort they may have had minimal impact on

Code camp projects don't say much of anything either way to me on a resume. They don't rule out the above but they don't support it either. They basically say:

- I care enough about learning to code that I paid for a code camp

- I didn't get kicked out or completely fail out of the code camp

- I realize that employers value seeing projects on resumes

To me putting the code camp projects on a resume when they are not clearly marked as being part of that code camp is as dishonest as doing it for college projects when they are not listed under your education background. I've seen countless resumes come in where the projects from code camps are presented in a way so that the recruiter/hiring manager thinks they were self directed projects the person did on their own. The code camps know that this is a strong signal for top talent, and so they mentor the students to craft their resumes to mask the fact that the projects were assigned work.

The result of this, sadly, was that enrollment in code bootcamps became a first order screen for me. I'm sure there were some good people in there. But the work required to actually decipher what the resume was actually telling me required too much effort. (It would require opening the projects they did, trying to figure out if it was assigned or not, if it was a group project, and what contributions they made directly.) In the end, this combined with the fact that many code boot camp applicants are woefully underqualified made it not worth the time to sift through them to find the best ones.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#45
post #10

Here in Minnesota we went from getting almost no developer applicants and unable to fill seats to a TON of absolutely under qualified applicants who went to boot camps. I'm not sure it's an improvement. We've hired a few, but only one has actually worked out.

Could you elaborate on what you hired the bootcamp graduates to do, what you mean by "under qualified" for the rejected candidates, and the gap between expectations and performance of the ones you did hire?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks gotta start somewhere. If someone is sufficiently capable and motivated to put together a basic app why not count that experience? Surely if they built it then their work is exactly a demonstration of their skill.

It was a 'team' effort. So, when you go look at the git history of the 'project', you can see who in the team actually contributed. Usually, it wasn't the person looking for a job. Then you wonder, ok, maybe shared computer... which makes it even harder to figure out. How is that a win for people who are paying tons of money to get an 'education'? I believe strongly that software engineering is an art form that requi…

If they submit projects they did not contribute to then that is an issue. Your other points however, I disagree with. - all code I write commercially will have dozens of contributors. It's a team sport and you need to be able to play well with others to succeed. - the best place to get experience is in the works place. That is why folks hire juniors. They will have massive gaps in their knowledge, but they will also be keen and in learning mode. Help them improve and become great developers. They will do much better in a commercial environment with good guidance than struggling at home alone

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#47
Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process.

Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get past resume screens using all sorts of tricks. The blow back from that (I'm speculating here) is that code boot camp folks are probably often being screened out early at a lot of places since its just too difficult to assess them on paper based on the extensive grooming their resumes and github profiles get by their mentors at these bootcamps.

Instead, my advice would be to clearly label the work you've done at a code camp in your README files and include a link to your github. Explicitly call out on your resume projects you have done on your own, and talk about those in your cover letter. If you have literally any other projects or experience related to software engineering include those on your resume and emphasize them!

But highlighting your code camp and trying to tout it as "highly selective" and "accepts only top 1% of applicants" and all that stuff may be doing more harm than good at this point. The well has been poisoned by enough under-qualified people applying that ultimately need to be screened out via an on-site interview, which is time consuming and considered a failure of the hiring process, since they have been set up to pass the resume screen and the initial phone screens. So my advice is to just leave it off, consider the knowledge a secret asset, and don't risk inadvertently damaging your own application!

All it takes is for a company to be burned once or twice by misleading applications from a coding boot camp candidate to just auto-screen out all resumes from them in general. It sucks, but I found myself looking at resumes that seemed genuinely good, but as soon as the boot camp was listed there, I no longer had trust in what I was looking at. So be mindful, there may be folks out there who would have normally had you interview but didn't just because of past negative experiences with others from your code camp, or other boot camps altogether!

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#48
post #37

Really? What about the STEM shortage?

There is no STEM shortage and hasn't been for decades. Unemployment for CS grads in the UK is 14% according to the Graun (other sources have it at only 13%). And these people want to charge you a fortune claiming they can teach you better than a 3-year degree in a few weeks.

Is that for CS itself? The stats I've seen published in the past bundle lots of computer related subjects together, which massively distorts the picture.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#49
post #5

"But the coding boot-camp field now faces a sobering moment, as two large schools have announced plans to shut down this year — despite backing by major for-profit education companies, Kaplan and the Apollo Education Group, the parent of the University of Phoenix." Not sure "despite" is the right phrasing here. I'm a DBC grad from about three years ago, and I know DBC had various issues, but I do suspect that there w…

Thank you! I remember when in High School, everyone was worried about standardized tests, Kaplan and Princeton Review were considered horrible for SAT/ACT prep. Most of the top students reported that local prep classes were much better, despite having several standardized locations throughout each city (Testmasters for Houston, KD for Dallas).

It's not surprising that Kaplan, a company that relies on services that are supposed to improve performance but not actually teach, would suck at teaching skills. I think the debate should expand from just coding schools vs uni to comparing coding schools.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#50
post #47

Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview process. Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp candidates, who are trying to effectively get…

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad at me when we inevitably disagree about some question? I'd rather put it on my resume and take my chances.
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