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ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

atlas.cern

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Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#41

Anyone else here is having a hard time seeing what could be applied usage of light-by-light scattering? (ie new computers? new internet? new telescopes?) Can someone here give us some insights?

Wait 50-100 years then I'll get back to you.

Cryogenic freezing of magnets so that they would be useful as superconductors allowed people to create MRI.

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#42
post #32

Anyone else here is having a hard time seeing what could be applied usage of light-by-light scattering? (ie new computers? new internet? new telescopes?) Can someone here give us some insights?

The bleeding edge of physics and other science and math if often just a lottery. You research something, show that it's probably correct even if it's not practical in any way, and then years later someone says "you know, if we just applied..." Modern cryptography would be impossible without number theory, yet all the breakthroughs that made it possible took place decades and centuries beforehand. All they needed was…

The laser is a good example of this phenomenon: it struggled to find early applications. I can't pin down a source, but apparently it was once described as "a solution looking for a problem".

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#43
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High energies are not absolutely necessary. Couples of "virtual" particles can be created at any energy, it's just less likely for smaller energies. I think the real problem was the experimental set-up: particle accelerators use electric field to transfer energy to particles and magnetic field to control their trajectory and eventually to cause collisions, but all of this only works with charged particles. And photon…

> Couples of "virtual" particles can be created at any energy doesn't the energy need to be at least the mass of the virtual particle?

No, it doesn't. Remember that the mass of a particle is just an average: energy and time are linked by the uncertainty principle as position and momentum are, thus decaying particles (pretty much all of them) do not have a sharply defined mass.

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#44
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High energies are not absolutely necessary. Couples of "virtual" particles can be created at any energy, it's just less likely for smaller energies. I think the real problem was the experimental set-up: particle accelerators use electric field to transfer energy to particles and magnetic field to control their trajectory and eventually to cause collisions, but all of this only works with charged particles. And photon…

> Couples of "virtual" particles can be created at any energy doesn't the energy need to be at least the mass of the virtual particle?

The vacuum itself has enough energy that there are particle pairs popping into existence and annihilating each other constantly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#45
post #36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we hadn't known about GR when we built the GPS system, wouldn't we have realised there was an unexpected drift in the clocks and found a way to recalibrate them periodically? And hence have discovered GR in the process. Alternatively (and more likely) we would have decided the idea simply doesn't work.

"Alternatively (and more likely) we would have decided the idea simply doesn't work." No, we would just keep beating on it until it works. It's a myth that science always precedes engineering. It's a very regular drift, and worst case scenario, if they just couldn't work it out, they'd build several ground stations in known locations, derive corrections as those drift, and upload corrections into the system periodica…

Given the choice between trial and error engineering and science backed engineering I much prefer the latter. That does not mean doing engineering without the science is impossible just so much harder. They both go hand in hand, nothing mythological here. Advancements in one leads to ideas in the other and vice-versa.

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#46
post #23
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at the moment they use a level 1 hardware trigger and a level 2 software trigger. ALICE is moving to a pure software trigger.

When I last participated to ATLAS, working in the Trigger & Data Acquisition group, ATLAS had 3 levels of trigger: the first was hardware, the others were software. Regarding the first level, software was not an option due to the extremely high bunch-crossing frequency (40 million times per second). The difference between the 2nd and 3rd levels consisted of data availability (region-of-interest only for 2nd, full det…

They've since scrapped L2, now it's only L1 (HW) and the High Level Trigger (HLT) running on a server farm

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#47
post #20

Can someone explain this in easier terms for a layman like myself?

Photons carry no charge, so normally they don't interact with each other. However, at high enough energies they do. The explanation given by the best available theory is that there is enough energy that a virtual electron and virtual anti-electron form, and since those have charges, they interact, and from the outside it appears that the photons interacted. This is totally impossible in the classical view, but is fin…

>Photons carry no charge, so normally they don't interact with each other.

Not having charge doesn't imply they don't interact. They just don't through the electromagnetic force. Neutrons also have no charge but interact via the strong force, for example.

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#48
post #30
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Photons carry no charge, so normally they don't interact with each other. However, at high enough energies they do. The explanation given by the best available theory is that there is enough energy that a virtual electron and virtual anti-electron form, and since those have charges, they interact, and from the outside it appears that the photons interacted. This is totally impossible in the classical view, but is fin…

High energies are not absolutely necessary. Couples of "virtual" particles can be created at any energy, it's just less likely for smaller energies. I think the real problem was the experimental set-up: particle accelerators use electric field to transfer energy to particles and magnetic field to control their trajectory and eventually to cause collisions, but all of this only works with charged particles. And photon…

what does virtual mean in this case? is this word mean something in quantum physics?

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#49
post #2

Neat-o. A little bit more info at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-photon_physics . Basically two photons with enough energy to interact via virtual pairs created. It will be interesting to see the cross-section rates and maybe hopefully some new physics (as the wikipedia page weakly hints).

>> Basically two photons with enough energy to interact via virtual pairs created.

Or could it be that a photon bends space-time as though it had mass, and they simply follow the local curvature and it looks like scattering? Just speculating, because for some purposes photons act like a solid particle with their energy equivalent mass traveling at speed c.

Re: ATLAS sees first direct evidence of light-by-light scattering at high energy

#50
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard people make the argument about GR being essential to the GPS system before, but the skeptic in me has doubts. I don't deny that it's useful to have a correction derived from relativity, but is it really as essential as people make it out to be? If we hadn't known about GR when we built the GPS system, wouldn't we have realised there was an unexpected drift in the clocks and found a way to recalibrate them…

> If we hadn't known about GR when we built the GPS system, wouldn't we have realised there was an unexpected drift in the clocks and found a way to recalibrate them periodically? And hence have discovered GR in the process. Alternatively (and more likely) we would have decided the idea simply doesn't work.

> And hence have discovered GR in the process.

Fascinating to wonder how modern physics community worldview would be different, if GR had gone [empirical anomaly -> new theory], and ended up in the same place rather than [thought experiment -> empirical proof]. (IAN a historian of physics - forgive me if I have that wrong.)

> Alternatively (and more likely) we would have decided the idea simply doesn't work.

I don't think that's true. Consider the Bell Labs guys who won the Nobel Price for Microwave Background Radiation, who were just trying to remove the noise their antenna was receiving.

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