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As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

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Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#41
As a trans woman in tech, who was also raised in a very gender normative environment (i.e. I was expected to conform to gender norms for boys as a child), I certainly see her point. I got into technology a child mostly because that what I could do within the environment's "boy" social role.

Fast forward a couple of decades, and relative to pretty much all cis women of the same age, I have many more years of experience of playing around with technology in my free time, and many fewer years spent doing the "empathising" activities which the author refers to in the article - exactly the kind of activities which girls are often nudged towards. As a consequence I am pretty good with technology.

And yet the more that I grow as a person, connect with who I am, and grow in my options, the more I find playing around with tech less fulfilling than e.g. spending time on relationships. I'd spend evenings tinkering with Linux when I was 13, but I'd be unsatisfied as hell doing that today. And I envy women and girls raised in environments that were more conducive towards them engaging in empathising and self-expressive activities - if that were me, it's unlikely I'd have gone down a tech track.

We need equality and freedom, but men and women are biologically different.

And it's not a coincidence that my first HN comment in years of reading is on an empathising topic, not a technology one... Women can be great engineers, we just rarely care to become them, unless circumstances unnaturally push us towards it - I suspect this is why it is developed countries which have the fewest women in tech, as wealthy people have the most options to choose from. Of course this is all generalisations and averages and there are true exceptions on both sides.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#42
As appealing as I find the idea of building a fibre-channel network at home, the fact that people in computing (like me) routinely do these kind of things is also an aspect of a culture within the field, not an essential characteristic of the field itself. Do surgeons have watercooler conversations along the lines of, "You'll never guess what I dissected at the weekend..." ?

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#43

That's fine. Many of us don't spend weekends building tech setups in basements - in fact I strive not to. My coworkers don't as well. You don't have to mainly identify as a profession in order to practice it, and I suspect as we improve work life balance, we wont in general.

I don't now, but I certainly did in the beginning of my career. I was even pressured to as a junior developer-- I apparently wasn't learning the new framework fast enough and they suggested I study at home.

For the most part I work rather normal hours now-- but occasionally I branch out and build stuff in my free time. I agree that it's not necessary and I could maintain my normal job in development without it. But I've also been able to parlay my hobby coding into new positions or profitable side work. It has given me more confidence and freedom.

Plenty of my co-workers don't build things on their own time. But as such I'm much more likely to be given the more interesting and challenging projects. I also likely have better job security. There are lots of benefits to being one of the crazy ones building fiber networks in your basement.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#44
post #19

Similar to the diagnosis by Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eieVE-xFXuo Personally I think it is oversimplification - the thing is that - yes there is a root cause in biology - but than that root cause is multiplied by social circumstances. If there are few women in tech - then it is costly for employers to adjust to them (stuff like adding women sizes t-shirts) - plus it is also cheaper intellectual…

> yes there is a root cause in biology No. Proof: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... If there was a root cause in biology, in 1980 there wouldn't be the same % of women in CS as in business, or almost the same as social sciences. Or almost the same as there are women in math/stats today. Something happened in the early 80's. I have a hypothesis for that, tied to the rise of video-games, s…

Actually, you're wrong. This doesn't disprove anything, unfortunately, because there also can be a feedback effect from people preferring fields with more people of their own gender (that is for example women will prefer jobs with more women over jobs with less women, ceteris paribus). In the presence of such feedback effects, even if the ratio of men and women who intent to work in some field is the same, you will get a dynamical system where the actual ratio can vary a great deal over time.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#45
post #8

Another very reasonable article on the topic. I'm sure it will soon be [flagged] just like the other one since it doesn't support the "Damore is an ignorant, sexist pig" narrative: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973059

I was, in my head, betting against you (regarding your prediction of flagging). You win, though.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#46
The idea that you've got to be some sort of obsessive wretch with no life outside of tech in order to successfully fill a role at a tech company is nothing but a pernicious myth. So is the idea that you've got to be some ridiculous super-genius. All you have to do is be reasonably smart and capable of learning on the job.

When interviewers at tech companies mistakenly believe that every successful candidate has to be building atom smashers in their spare time, and especially when interviewers at tech companies unconsciously favor candidates that match what their 'stereotypical' candidate looks like, well, then you get a situation like the one described in the article. But this isn't natural or normal or a product of biology - it's just bias perpetuating itself.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#47
post #33
post #13

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or mos…

>There's not a lot of room for people to be in CS/SWE and not take part in all this non-work community. There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality: the jobs at non-software companies where programmers are a cost center . E.g. enterprisey - line-of-business - type of programming. Actually, the "back-office" type of software dev is the majority of programming jobs out there . Yes, there may…

It meshes fine with virtually all companies. Companies that attempt to cram 60 hours of productivity into 40 hour weeks suffer for it: their employees burn large amounts of time doing nonproductive stuff while maintaining "face time", and quality suffers terribly as people do shoddy work to maintain the preferred cadence.

Nobody who spends significant amounts of time with valley programmers believes that the 10-hour-day 6-day-a-week people are, in general, spending all that time productively.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#48
post #6

"And the sexual harassment, while annoying, was just that: annoying. I cannot recall that it ever affected my work, nor that I lost any sleep over it." This says it all. Most women are not like this author. They will loose sleep over it and rightly so.

Well, some people is stronger than others to social pressure. Anyway, the author is not saying that sexual harassment doesn't exist nor it does not matter, but that even putting those aside maybe engineering is just not an attractive field for women.

That said, I don't know if I buy that you have to be a dedicated geek to be in engineering.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#49
post #5

Great article and hits on what I think is the main difference between men and women: men seem to be far more likely to become obsessive and devote massive amounts of time to hobbies and study. I mean if you're not popular and girls aren't interested in you, what else are you going to do? And spending years being obsessed with computers is naturally going to lead you down a path towards a degree and job in computers,…

I'm not sure being unpopular or not being the object of attention for girls has anything to do with this. Hobbies on the other hand was a pretty good spot. Nearly every male I know has hobbies that are either directly related to tech or engineering or of not are mechanical engineering or crafting related (e.g. metal working, cars etc.). I know on a very personal level 6 females in tech, including my current partner t…

You really don't know any women that do the traditionally more feminine crafts like sewing? If metal working is related to an engineering hobby, then sewing most definitely is as well. Having experience in both, the parallels are uncanny; they both require designing a project, procuring materials, preparing those materials and the machines for the required operations, performing the tasks skillfully, and iterating to improve as you do more projects.

This seems like it could be a case where the feminine version of what is being considered has a tendency to be dismissed.

I have no issue with considering that this may be more prevalent in one sex or the other, but there's also a lot of room for people to overlook what does occur. Cooking is a good example of something that is highly technical and often requires a great investment of personal time, yet appears to have much better gender equality. Perhaps this is due to traditional cultural reasons, or perhaps it really is distinct from e.g. programming.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#50

The idea that you've got to be some sort of obsessive wretch with no life outside of tech in order to successfully fill a role at a tech company is nothing but a pernicious myth. So is the idea that you've got to be some ridiculous super-genius. All you have to do is be reasonably smart and capable of learning on the job. When interviewers at tech companies mistakenly believe that every successful candidate has to be…

No one said you have to be obsessive, but it helps.
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