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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

41–50 of 162 posts

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it should close at night. Pretty much every city with a subway system worth bragging about does. It always seemed strange to me that Philly is the only city I've been to that fully replaces the subway at night with buses.

Part of what makes the subway system worth bragging about is that it runs at night.

I am proud of that as a New Yorker, but I would much rather replace it with buses at night if that would make it actually work during the day.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it should close at night. Pretty much every city with a subway system worth bragging about does. It always seemed strange to me that Philly is the only city I've been to that fully replaces the subway at night with buses.

Part of what makes the subway system worth bragging about is that it runs at night.

Why? Surface buses can run quickly at night when there is light traffic, and the air quality is far better at surface level than in the subway.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.

This phenomenon is almost comical with the NJTransit Northeast Corridor lines into NYC. They frequently cluster two inbound Northeast Corridor trains (all the way from Trenton) with the express coming 3-4 minutes after the local (having left Trenton 20 minutes later). Even on weekends, the local is frequently standing room only (usually totally packed) whereas the express will have plenty of free seats. At Secaucus J…

I commuted my first year out of undergrad from Central NJ. At the time, it was very frustrating because NJ Transit is so unreliable. All the stresses of a given day could metastasize to a point where a transit nightmare could make you break.

Now, take adults who pay one of the nations highest property taxes, throw in confusion as to where their dollars are going (they thought infrastructure was definitely a bucket), and you have a perfectly good reason to throw a "temper tantrum."

Most NJ complaints, and attempts to speak with your local politician, or even a local agency, falls on deaf ears. Thus, what can these grown adults do when they are pretty entrenched into Jersey? It's frustrating. I moved out of NJ after spending my HS years, Undergrad years, and 1 year of work, and vowed to never give them another tax dollar because their government is filled with people who simply do not care about your problems.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#45
post #3

It would seem one could analyze the performance in this day of big data and find a more efficient plan for scheduling the trains and adjusting in real time. Maybe the system is too unpredictable to make this possible. Even so it would be fun to try to model the entire system and try.

The problem isn't in modeling the perfect train distribution, it is in that the system itself can't handle anything else. Many of the parts in the subway infrastructure are from the 40s and they just can't handle more trains.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#46
post #7

Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.

It's not right, and the explanations about the age of the systems are mostly excuses. There is a good article somewhere, maybe the Atlantic, where the reporter was able to get some MTA managers to admit they were essentially holding fixes to the visible problem (no arrival time signaling) hostage as a means to gather public support and funding for less visible overhaul of the infrastructure, by bundling the two together.

Hard to prove this is the case, but it smells right to me. Modern signaling system that did nothing but give arrival times to the public would not have to make use of any infrastructure at all -- it could run completely independently -- and could be done for a tiny fraction of the billions of dollars that the MTA is spending on the slow work they say is currently necessary to get it.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#47

Anyone know of a documentary on the New York subway? I would love to see all this old equipment and what they are really battling in order to keep it running.

There is this[1] video from the MTA that goes into the signaling system, which is extremely old and in the process of getting updated in certain sections.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx3S3UjmnA

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#48
The biggest reason for these delays I've found over the years it the signaling system and headway spacing.

Blocks on a railway system are designed to provide enough space and warning so that trains do not crash into each other. However, when you use line side signals and CTC (Centralized Train Control) to dispatch them, you end up with a set of rules that create spaces for occupancy that can easily be longer than the trains themselves.

In the NYC subway, speaking as an observer as opposed to an insider, the signaling and dispatching requires certain distances between trains and headways (time between trains) to provide safety of 2-4 minutes. However, this results in the cascading delays as one train that dwells too long in a platform can have a stacking effect on trains behind.

For example, if your minimum block distance is 1000 feet, and a max length train is 500 feet, a stack of five trains waiting to enter a station would actually occupy 5,000 feet of track. This could stretch to previous stations along the line.

The best solution would be dynamic blocks and cab signals, where the system itself defines spaces occupied by trains and only allows a train into a space where it can occupy safely, but also can make the distances dynamic based on conditions. Cab signals would be required as you can't have dynamic blocks with line side signals.

However, to do this requires a massive investment in new equipment both line side and on the trains that would take years to implement, along with a massive amount of painful work that would cause even more issues while it is being set up.

Sadly, running more trains probably won't cut it as the system literally cannot handle more safely.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a perfect world there are four branches of government: Legislative, Judicial, Executive, Cranky Mass Transit Dictator

Well, we had Robert Moses and look how that turned out

He was more of an asphalt dictator who barely tolerated mass transit.

But I agree with your point.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#50
post #2

So the transit authority decided that it was more important to have trains evenly spaced out (to minimize the worst case wait times), but the tradeoff was less total capacity and thus more crowded trains. I'm really not sure which is the better case. Trains always arrive in a short time, but can be full. Or you may have to wait longer for a train, and then a little longer still for the train right behind that train t…

As someone with difficulty in crowded places I would have preferred less crowded trains over anything. Many times I had to wait until the evening rush was over before I could get on the 1 train home - the morning rush I had no choice.
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