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Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

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Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author must not be used to the new spyware-by-default mentality coming from Microsoft. Hard to believe, but they used to sell products a while ago and had no telemetry. If you want to see how it's done properly, look at OmniGroup: their apps have toggleable telemetry and it's off by default.

@blub can you explain me how it's exactly "spying on you"? There is difference between collecting information about how many people are using vs whether a particular person is using. Collecting diagnostic information from windows application failures/how many failures etc are there ever since Windows 95 era. Similarly, collecting information about how many people are using dotnet core build/test/publish is similar to…

Mozilla asks you, whether you want to send the telemetry.

If you say no, it won't send anything.

No, the settings do not mysteriously reset themselves.

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#42
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author must not be used to the new spyware-by-default mentality coming from Microsoft. Hard to believe, but they used to sell products a while ago and had no telemetry. If you want to see how it's done properly, look at OmniGroup: their apps have toggleable telemetry and it's off by default.

@blub can you explain me how it's exactly "spying on you"? There is difference between collecting information about how many people are using vs whether a particular person is using. Collecting diagnostic information from windows application failures/how many failures etc are there ever since Windows 95 era. Similarly, collecting information about how many people are using dotnet core build/test/publish is similar to…

it can't be explained to you

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#43
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author must not be used to the new spyware-by-default mentality coming from Microsoft. Hard to believe, but they used to sell products a while ago and had no telemetry. If you want to see how it's done properly, look at OmniGroup: their apps have toggleable telemetry and it's off by default.

@blub can you explain me how it's exactly "spying on you"? There is difference between collecting information about how many people are using vs whether a particular person is using. Collecting diagnostic information from windows application failures/how many failures etc are there ever since Windows 95 era. Similarly, collecting information about how many people are using dotnet core build/test/publish is similar to…

it can't be explained to you

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#44
post #3

For reference, they collect[1]: The command being used (for example, "build", "restore") The ExitCode of the command For test projects, the test runner being used The timestamp of invocation The framework used Whether runtime IDs are present in the "runtimes" node The CLI version being used I'm actually OK with this to be honest. Here is the telemetry code itself: https://github.com/dotnet/cli/blob/5a37290f24aba5d35f…

> For reference, they collect That's not all that matters. IMO the real decision is: do you /trust/ MS ? Do you trust that they anonymize collected data and that they won't secretly change collected data? Do you trust future MS with that information. > I'm actually OK with this to be honest That's perfectly fine if you trust them. Many people don't. Personally I wouldn't trust any dev tool that uploads my usage.

> do you /trust/ MS ?

Why do you have to trust MS? You can read the source code to check for yourself whether sensitive information is sent. You don't have to take Microsoft's word for it.

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#45
post #16

Here's what Microsoft have learnt from the telemetry [1]. [1] https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2017/07/21/what-weve...

The data is also public, at: -q .tsv" rel="nofollow">https://dotnetcli.blob.core.windows.net/usagedata/dotnet-cli... So, the latest would be: https://dotnetcli.blob.core.windows.net/usagedata/dotnet-cli...

I think it's noteworthy that they even include command line arguments that are mistyped, for example "bulid".

What happens if you accidentally paste an AWS secret key or similar in the middle of a command line argument? Will that too appear in public csv files a year later?

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#46

Come on folks, this is printed out on the use of the command and basically any site today does more intrusive telemetry. I think they should ask people like Yeoman, but I don't think they deserve this much shit for such a small thing.

> and basically any site today does more intrusive telemetry

So the next version of Bash should have telemetry?

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#47

Ah, these geeks that hallucinate themselves as Will Smith in Enemy of the State. Never gets old. I think in this case the onus is on the paranoid coder with an inflated sense of their own importance to stop MS getting their hands on the super sekret dotnet usage information. And that's easy - it's a setting. (Non) problem solved.

> And that's easy - it's a setting. (Non) problem solved.

I still don't think this is a non problem. When you are using many different tools that are updating constantly, it is easy to not notice one adding telemetry. And even if you disable it, it very well may be silently reenabled in the future.

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#49
Coming from Europe, I'm a little worried by the general attitude here. We tend to side with privacy first. There are some real genuine concerns from real people like myself who have to work with this tooling. I'll detail my thoughts:

1. It's setting a bad precedence for data collection by default. Name one other tool of the same class that actually sends telemetry data home by default?

2. It's much harder to ensure that the tooling is compliant with data protection policies within an organisation if the tooling by default sends telemetry. We now have to assume it's going to send stuff by default and configure all build infrastructure, every developer workstation and every piece of the toolchain independently. This is particularly of concern in the finance sector. It also costs us time and money.

3. There's no test cases to cover the telemetry functionality at all. Check the code. What happens if it starts reporting command lines due to a trivial defect.

4. There is a crudely defined document which describes what the telemetry does, but not what it will do in the future. What happens is a PR appears, gets merged and gets pushed out to a new version. To find out what happens you have to read every merge, every PR for a release.

This is a loaded gun waiting for any security conscious team to shoot themselves in the face with. Really this will gate the product into the bin at the first technical review stage for a lot of companies. There is no appetite for being milked.

I'd also like to add the absolute zero communications on this front from MSFT. People have asked directly via PRs to turn this off because they do not want it and they have been ignored for over a year. The usual response from MSFT is never to respond directly to this question and instead outline what the telemetry does expecting the question to remain answered. If there's anything I've learned over the years; you can't trust anyone who won't answer a direct question.

Re: Microsoft/.Net Foundation added telemetry to the dotnet command line last year

#50
post #3

For reference, they collect[1]: The command being used (for example, "build", "restore") The ExitCode of the command For test projects, the test runner being used The timestamp of invocation The framework used Whether runtime IDs are present in the "runtimes" node The CLI version being used I'm actually OK with this to be honest. Here is the telemetry code itself: https://github.com/dotnet/cli/blob/5a37290f24aba5d35f…

> For reference, they collect That's not all that matters. IMO the real decision is: do you /trust/ MS ? Do you trust that they anonymize collected data and that they won't secretly change collected data? Do you trust future MS with that information. > I'm actually OK with this to be honest That's perfectly fine if you trust them. Many people don't. Personally I wouldn't trust any dev tool that uploads my usage.

>That's not all that matters. IMO the real decision is: do you /trust/ MS ? Do you trust that they anonymize collected data and that they won't secretly change collected data? Do you trust future MS with that information.

You don't need to trust them. The telemetry code is open source AND they release the aggregate data it collects for anyone to use/inspect.

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