Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#41

Post by Aeolun » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:44 AM UTC

AVTizzle wrote: post #34

>> "I was visiting with an ex-student who’s now the CFO of a large public tech company." >> "(By coincidence, the CEO was an intern at one of my startups more than two decades ago.)" Admittedly, this isn't adding to the discussion at hand. Just one amateur writer picking apart another's writing style, but... Is it just me, or do those lines serve no purpose except to boost the author's own ego and sense of self-impor…

Later on in the story it's become apparent that the line that the CEO is touting is the exact same one that the author told him 20 years ago, so I'd say that part is pretty relevant :)

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#42

Post by frozenport » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:45 AM UTC

I'd like to remind people that large companies are the only ones capable of hiring junior engineers who might not be at full productivity at day 0. This is especially true of the C++ ecosystem.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#43

Post by linuxray » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:47 AM UTC

you did not mention something in this article. check again and re-post.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#44

Post by pinewurst » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

gwern wrote: post #25

throwaway7645 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to fit: 1.) move from Palo alto to east bay 2.) manufacturing company with software engineers 3.) lots of people leaving 4.) CEO changing the world. However, I'm sure many companies meet that.

Bingo. The company was Rocket Science Games. https://web.archive.org/web/20121113115319/https://engineeri... says Blank was involved, and one of Musk's internships was also there according to the Musk bio and a few sites listing his internships (simultaneous with Pinnacle, apparently).

That really makes me feel old - I used to work for another gaming company at that time that was pals with Rocket Science. It was not exactly a model of how to run a business - and where I worked was hardly GE. :)

From dubious acorns doth startup management gurus grow.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#45

Post by tdeck » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:50 AM UTC

jtmarmon wrote: post #18

arcanus wrote: post #2

Anyone have a guess as to what company this was?

My guess is square. The CFO went to stanford for an MBA, where the author taught. Neither CFO Tesla has had went to Stanford. Can't find anything about Dorsey working at one of the startups listed on the author's wikipedia page, but he seemed to have been involved with many so it would be unsurprising if it just wasn't listed there.

Square was never located in Palo Alto (although there is/was a small South Bay office where people could work one day a week) and is not, as far as I know, moving to the East Bay.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#46

Post by mnm1 » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:50 AM UTC

This attitude of "you really have to want to work here or you ought to leave" justifies a lot of insanity. I've heard it from companies who make potential employees jump through ridiculous hoops to even get a chance at a job. Here's reality for people who suffer from this delusion: most people don't give a fuck and are just looking for a job. They're applying to dozens or hundreds of jobs (yes, even in software), and expecting them to know everything there is to know about your company just to apply (like providing a detailed cover letter) is downright insane. This is how companies with such an attitude problem attract "yes-people," suckups and other undesirables and miss out on real talent that isn't going to stand on its head just to get a chance at an interview. Likewise, as the article points out, this toxic attitude is just as bad at retaining employees as it is at getting them in the first place. What I'd like to see is the second part of this story. How these people then hired another 50 software engineers with actual talent in the bay area. Most companies I speak to have trouble finding one or two, let alone 50. And all because of an incredibly naive and stupid attitude of the company's execs. This is indeed a case where the founders should have been replaced with proper executives, though I'm not sure 'proper' executives would have made a better decision.

As an aside, one shortcut to weeding out shitty companies is to simply filter out companies that say shit like, "we are on a mission to change the world." That's a guaranteed bad time.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#47

Post by banned1 » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:51 AM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

"Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast."

No, that is not the case most times. The most important part of software development is, as with any other part of the company, to maximize the value of the company. That may be speed, but if you have 1m users the most important thing may be to preserve trust, to acquire new customers, to automate existing infrastructure, etc. etc. Speed of software development is not a goal in many environments. Thoughtful execution may be hindered by a cowboy attitude in development. I'm not saying that speed in development is not sometimes the goal (maybe in startups within an enterprise trying to test an idea), but often it's not the most important thing.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#48

Post by danek » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #33

danek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, one "advantage" of "wanting to work there" is that counterproductive management practices can survive longer. If I'm your boss and am treating you like trash, and you complain, I can just say "oh it sounds like your commitment to this company isn't very high, shall we discuss your future?" That will work a multitude of times with a gaslit employee who really drank the company kool-aid.

Also, companies can use "level of enthusiasm for working here" as an excuse for their poor recruiting practices. "OH, the candidate dropped out of our recruiting process? But he was only at interview four after 6 weeks.... well it doesn't matter because clearly he didn't want to work here enough - we want people who really want to work here and are willing to do what it takes to get a job with us." Even worse: "But h…

Yes this too. Someone I know was interviewing at google (his first choice, he did a few rounds), and then later at some other places. Google took three months to get back to him and gave him a really good offer, but by that time he had already accepted somewhere else.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#49

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:55 AM UTC

banned1 wrote: post #47

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

"Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast." No, that is not the case most times. The most important part of software development is, as with any other part of the company, to maximize the value of the company. That may be speed, but if you have 1m users the most important thing may be to preserve trust, to acquire new customers, to automate existing infrastructure, etc. etc. Speed…

[deleted]

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#50

Post by ryandrake » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:56 AM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

I didn't take that away from the article at all. This wasn't an argument against formal process. It was more a story about acting like you're a big company, while pretending you're a small company, and the pitfalls of doing this. Where "acting" encompasses pay, stock incentives, other kinds of talent motivation, recruiting, leadership style, innovation, and yes formal process.

There's nothing wrong with process and best practices. Process is often scar tissue left behind after critical mistakes in the past. A company without some formal process is a company young enough to not have made disastrous mistakes yet.

I've worked in a company of more than 50 that was basically without a trace of software development process. It was a clown circus. Nothing could be released on time reliably, quality was a joke, there was no documentation, no code review, and no plan or roadmap. Sure, they moved fast, but it didn't matter.