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Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

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Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#41

Post by jaekwon »

OMG guys, let's get over this free will thing ok?

Free Will is an oxymoron. Will is supposed to be determined by you. Free Will points at our desire to think that our actions aren't determined by our universe, i.e. the desire to separate oneself from the observed determinism of our own universe.

It ain't gonna happen so long as you are capable of thinking. If you are thinking, you are determining your will.

Can't live a happy life without Free Will? I'm perfectly happy knowing that my thoughts, actions, and wants are a timeless pseudo-determined reality of this Universe. I feel at one with everything around me including people and inanimate objects. Why can't you?

Probably because some of us are conditioned to reject authority, and what bigger authority than the big U? Guess what... the way the universe appears to you is determined by the way you think. For example, just about everyone sees time as always moving forward. Why is thermodynamics and entropy the way it is? Because that is how we think, in terms of time/causality/consequences. If you reject the observed determinism of your universe, you are really just rejecting the process of your mind.

Which is fine, reject your brain if you want. Just know, that you're not rejecting some higher authority, rather you're just rejecting yourself.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#42

Post by Matti »

dkimball wrote: post #16

On actually reading the article: this title is a bad summary. (Makes me think of Slashdot.) What the article covers is the point, which I hope is uncontroversial, that stimuli give rise to responses, and influence the course of cognition: holding a warm cup of coffee makes you think more, well, warmly of someone you're interviewing; seeing a framed picture of a library causes you to speak more quietly; the smell of c…

Perceptual Control Theorists would argue that you don't understand behavior if you think that we, or other animals, respond to stimuli.

"The illusion of stimulus and response [..] What we see from outside the system is that the crosswind pushes sideways on the car and the front wheels of the car immediately cock into the wind, preventing any important change in the car's path. It looks just as if the car is being stimulated by the wind, and is responding by turning its front wheels into the wind. Of course we know that neither the car nor the driver can sense the crosswind; this appearance of stimulus and response is an illusion. The true explanation is a little more complicated than the stimulus-response explanation would be, but not much more complicated.

But we can see now how the impression that stimuli cause responses could arise, even if the system in question is really a control system that works as just described."

-- William T. Powers, A Brief Introduction to Perceptual Control Theory: http://www.benchpress.com/aboutPCT.htm

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#43

Post by jaekwon »

aplusbi wrote: post #23

I believe very strongly that free will is tied to the existence of randomness. Without randomness there can be no free will. From the little I've read it appears that true randomness does exist, in that there are experiments where all causally relevant variables are controlled and yet the outcome is still uncertain. I'm not convinced that there is true randomness in the universe however, and I guess that means I subs…

I don't think free will has anything to do with randomness. Rather, if you assume that free will exists, then you are cornered into looking for it in randomness.

And you say yourself, that you don't believe in randomness in the universe. Even if there were randomness, it wouldn't explain much more than determinism because there is plenty of chaos without it.

Read my other posting here and try to figure out why you want to believe in free will.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#44

Post by jaekwon »

qubit wrote: post #26

I honestly don't understand how anyone can question that we lack free will unless one believes in a soul or some other kind of "magic". If all of our actions are governed by our brains, and our brains are simply a collection of particles obeying the laws of physics, where is the room for free will?

Ask yourself why you feel the need to identify with Free Will. Are you free to choose otherwise (e.g. reject Free Will)?

You may find that Free Will is a paradoxical concept.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#45

Post by dasil003 »

a-priori wrote: post #40
dasil003 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true, however it's a bit overzealous to jump from starting to understand how the brain works to materialistic assumptions about the nature of consciousness of free will.

See, from my perspective it's overzealous to assume that the conscious mind is not materialistic in nature. With a question as ill-posed as the nature of consciousness, what's reasonable and what's overzealous depends entirely on your perspective.

Yes it's overzealous to assume either way. That's why it's philosophy not science.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#46

Post by benno »

joshkaufman wrote: post #22

Here's a re-framing of "free will" that I find very useful - it's more like "free won't." The technical term is Inhibition. Our physical and mental processes may make us inclined to act in a certain way, but we have a limited ability to inhibit that initial response long enough to do something different by using willpower. Think of a lion in the brush, ready to pounce on an unsuspecting antelope. The lion wants to po…

I agree on the power of inhibition, but I think the second point you alluded to is the larger one -- the ability to remove the stimulus.

Certainly it's hubris to believe that one can exercise "free will" to remain completely uninfluenced by one's environment. But what we can do is exercise a measure of intelligence and free will to anticipate the relationship between stimulus and response, and alter our environment accordingly.

I.e. if you're trying to lose weight, don't allow yourself to be exposed to fast food advertising.

Our brains may be heavily influenced by our environment in ways that we are not normally aware, but the existence of studies like these shows that we can begin to understand the dynamic of influence. Once we have understanding we can take appropriate measures.

As I see it, that's the true power of intelligence and human agency.

After all, as you point out, animals also have certain powers of inhibition. But none have the ability to comprehend their own minds and alter their environment accordingly.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#47

Post by benno »

benno wrote: post #46
joshkaufman wrote: post #22

Here's a re-framing of "free will" that I find very useful - it's more like "free won't." The technical term is Inhibition. Our physical and mental processes may make us inclined to act in a certain way, but we have a limited ability to inhibit that initial response long enough to do something different by using willpower. Think of a lion in the brush, ready to pounce on an unsuspecting antelope. The lion wants to po…

I agree on the power of inhibition, but I think the second point you alluded to is the larger one -- the ability to remove the stimulus. Certainly it's hubris to believe that one can exercise "free will" to remain completely uninfluenced by one's environment. But what we can do is exercise a measure of intelligence and free will to anticipate the relationship between stimulus and response, and alter our environment a…

By pure coincidence, this ties in well with something Nassim Taleb just tweeted:

"Unless we manipulate our surroundings,we have as little control over what & whom we think about as we do over the muscles of our hearts."

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#48

Post by benno »

benno wrote: post #47
benno wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the power of inhibition, but I think the second point you alluded to is the larger one -- the ability to remove the stimulus. Certainly it's hubris to believe that one can exercise "free will" to remain completely uninfluenced by one's environment. But what we can do is exercise a measure of intelligence and free will to anticipate the relationship between stimulus and response, and alter our environment a…

By pure coincidence, this ties in well with something Nassim Taleb just tweeted: "Unless we manipulate our surroundings,we have as little control over what & whom we think about as we do over the muscles of our hearts."

http://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/17647441068
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