Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#41

Post by fallingfrog » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

Tyranny is not black and white. Just because this is not North Korea does not mean that we are free, and just because a relationship is contractual does not mean it's fair. There are fantastic, gigantic power imbalances in this country, and this is one of them- and if people point out a moral problem it does not mean they are playing the victim, whining, or hitting emotional buttons. You can justify sharecropping with the argument you just made. Not only that but you just gave any government the right to impose any restriction on its citizens so long as they are able to leave- that's totally absurd.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#42

Post by fallingfrog » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #36

crdoconnor wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>completely voluntary. People need income to live, sure, but they are not forced to work for any one person Would chattel slavery be voluntary too if the slaves had a degree of choice over which master used them?

No, and it's not even close to the same thing. Your argument is just as ridiculous as the original article. People were literally considered pieces of property under chattel slavery. "Salary slavery" is nowhere near as horrific or demeaning as real slavery, and it's frankly an offensive comparison to make. If you want to never work a job in your life, pan handle on the streets, live off your relatives, or become a re…

Here again though, I disagree with the assumption that those should be our only two choices. Why is democracy in government common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#43

Post by fallingfrog » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #41

Jabanga wrote: post #14

I hate to get pedantic, but with the misuse of terms for the purpose of demagoguing against those with more capital, I feel compelled to point out that an employment relationship is wholly contractual, and therefore not a "tyranny", and perfectly consistent with a completely democratic society. Maybe the author means "egalitarian" or some other concept tangentially related to democracy. Voluntarily formed hierarchies…

Tyranny is not black and white. Just because this is not North Korea does not mean that we are free, and just because a relationship is contractual does not mean it's fair. There are fantastic, gigantic power imbalances in this country, and this is one of them- and if people point out a moral problem it does not mean they are playing the victim, whining, or hitting emotional buttons. You can justify sharecropping wit…

Besides, why is it that democracy in government is common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#44

Post by nxsynonym » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #42

nxsynonym wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and it's not even close to the same thing. Your argument is just as ridiculous as the original article. People were literally considered pieces of property under chattel slavery. "Salary slavery" is nowhere near as horrific or demeaning as real slavery, and it's frankly an offensive comparison to make. If you want to never work a job in your life, pan handle on the streets, live off your relatives, or become a re…

Here again though, I disagree with the assumption that those should be our only two choices. Why is democracy in government common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

I don't think I am following.

What would democracy, at its purest form, in a work place look like?

Would employees have voters rights over every single decision that would be made? That seems inefficient.

I don't think applying democracy to a workplace is crazy, I just don't understand why it's necessary.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#45

Post by convivialdingo » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

A bit off topic, but I think it speaks to the more general issues that voters (as employees) have little say in the laws which govern their workplaces.

The notion that America is currently a functioning Democracy is still a bit up in the air for me. Americans in general have little factual policy knowledge, and for the few issues that do get fairly well covered there is a strong politicization which verges on propaganda.

More to the point - many political arguments that we see today in the national press usually has the strong cashflow backing of a few elite pocketbooks. It is likely impossible to run an apolitical cause for the public good.

If not for overwhelming politicization, is there another reason why so many US voters are basically anemic to political causes (e.g. wages, education, vacation, medical) which (in general) they could easily vote into law - but don't?

Anyway, just my opinion.

Gilens and Page[1]:

>>>What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule — at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

Some rebuttles:

>>> Bashir and Branham/Soroka/Wlezien find that on these 185 bills, the rich got their preferred outcome 53 percent of the time and the middle class got what they wanted 47 percent of the time. The difference between the two is not statistically significant.[2]

>>> The researchers found the rich’s win rate for economic issues where there's disagreement is 57.1 percent, compared with 51.1 percent for social issues. There's a difference, but not a robust one. "The win rates for the two issue types are not statistically different from one another," Branham, Soroka, and Wlezien conclude.[2]

[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

[2] https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-...

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#46

Post by crdoconnor » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #36

crdoconnor wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>completely voluntary. People need income to live, sure, but they are not forced to work for any one person Would chattel slavery be voluntary too if the slaves had a degree of choice over which master used them?

No, and it's not even close to the same thing. Your argument is just as ridiculous as the original article. People were literally considered pieces of property under chattel slavery. "Salary slavery" is nowhere near as horrific or demeaning as real slavery, and it's frankly an offensive comparison to make. If you want to never work a job in your life, pan handle on the streets, live off your relatives, or become a re…

I never said it was the same thing and I didn't make an argument.

If you think "true freedom" is the ability to choose between minimum wage servitude and a (substantially criminalized) panhandling lifestyle that doesn't say much for your conception of freedom.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#47

Post by nxsynonym » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #46

nxsynonym wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and it's not even close to the same thing. Your argument is just as ridiculous as the original article. People were literally considered pieces of property under chattel slavery. "Salary slavery" is nowhere near as horrific or demeaning as real slavery, and it's frankly an offensive comparison to make. If you want to never work a job in your life, pan handle on the streets, live off your relatives, or become a re…

I never said it was the same thing and I didn't make an argument. If you think "true freedom" is the ability to choose between minimum wage servitude and a (substantially criminalized) panhandling lifestyle that doesn't say much for your conception of freedom.

If you're not making an argument then why even mention it?

True freedom is living in a society that provides the necessities for every individual, or living in a completely lawless non-society.

What is it that you are getting at, exactly? Or are you just posting to being argumentative (without making an argument).

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#48

Post by jhbadger » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #44

fallingfrog wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here again though, I disagree with the assumption that those should be our only two choices. Why is democracy in government common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

I don't think I am following. What would democracy, at its purest form, in a work place look like? Would employees have voters rights over every single decision that would be made? That seems inefficient. I don't think applying democracy to a workplace is crazy, I just don't understand why it's necessary.

Citizens don't have rights over every single decision in a democracy either. They elect representatives. Worker democracy could work similarly. As for why it is "necessary", presumably it would guide decisions so that the needs of the workers were taken into account, which very often doesn't happen.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#49

Post by inb4dangshitban » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #35

namlem wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh I don't know if I would describe all employment contracts as completely voluntary. There are plenty of workers without the ability to change jobs easily. If you're broke, have kids, and have few skills, it's very hard to change careers.

Difficult to change yes, but you are not obligated or physically forced to stay with any one country. If it were a true dictatorship, as the article claims, you would have no say in where you apply, what you accept, when you decide to leave, etc.

Oh. Right. And a family with kids, probably with some debt is going to get ID's (cost) and all the riddiculous paperwork (more cost), get passports (even more cost) pack up, switch countries (COOOOOST) and magically be allowed to work there even though they are not citizens? Right.

People voluntarily work at places where you have to piss yourself because you can't have a bathroom break.

I don't even.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#50

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 18, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

nxsynonym wrote: post #44

fallingfrog wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here again though, I disagree with the assumption that those should be our only two choices. Why is democracy in government common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

I don't think I am following. What would democracy, at its purest form, in a work place look like? Would employees have voters rights over every single decision that would be made? That seems inefficient. I don't think applying democracy to a workplace is crazy, I just don't understand why it's necessary.

> What would democracy, at its purest form, in a work place look like?

Exactly like corporate governance, except that instead of stockholders with voting rights weighted by size and class of their stockholdings, the people voting on the basic rules which govern the degree and manner in which routine authority is delegated to elected directors, officers, etc., are the employees each having an equal vote.

> Would employees have voters rights over every single decision that would be made?

On a fundamental level, yes but they'd probably in practice delegate much routine authority to elected representatives who would serve like a board of directors and who would in turn likely be given, and exercise, the right to delegate some of that authority to particular individual employees (directly to officers, who then delegate to subordinate managers, etc.)