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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#41

Post by Steeeve »

sbarre wrote: post #32
Steeeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering almost every single large tech company is using React React isn't as popular in the real world as it is on HN.

Well, anecdotally speaking of course, my company does work for most of the major (a) banks, (b) telcos and (c) insurance companies in Canada, and the majority of them are moving from Angular 1.x to React (because Angular 4 is a mess) for their front-end work, both on the public and secure side of things. Hopefully they've all done their due diligence..

That's interesting. I've done a good deal of work in all three verticals and introducing a restricted license in any of their environments would have been a tough sell that involved a legal review and a well documented business case. I can think of a few where I can guarantee they would never allow it - and not based on any problems with React's license in particular, but because of internal history.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#42

Post by Steeeve »

madeofpalk wrote: post #31
Steeeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering almost every single large tech company is using React React isn't as popular in the real world as it is on HN.

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean 'almost every single large tech company', but React is used by Facebook (of course), Apple, Twitter, Yahoo, Netflix, Amazon, just to name a few.

I would certainly concede that. And I'm not trying to rain on React's parade here. I'm just saying that HN is particularly pro-React as a community.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#43

Post by FRex »

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

RakNet does that too (it's owned by Facebook via Occulus for a while now, Facebook bought Occulus then Occulus bought RakNet): https://github.com/facebookarchive/RakNet/blob/master/PATENT...

Is this widespread at all or is it just Facebook..?

Edit: I'm glad to be downvoted for asking a genuine fucking question if anyone else does this since Apache mentions Facebook and the only place I ran into PATENTS file is another Facebook property and googling brings nothing up except more React..

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#44

Post by tomelders »

geofft wrote: post #13
jorgemf wrote: post #2

Can someone explain how this can affect to projects using react, as in a part of a product of a company or personal projects? Thanks I found this [1]: > FB is not interested in pursuing the more draconian possibilities of the BSD+patents license. If that is true, there is actually very little difference between BSD+patents and the Apache license. As such, relicensing should make little if any pragmatic difference to…

From Mark Thomas's comment on this bug: > My reading of that is if you use this code and Facebook infringes a completely unrelated patent that you own, you can't sue them for infringement without giving up this patent license. That is much broader than the language in the ALv2 which is limited to a single work. So it almost certainly doesn't affect personal projects unless you are the sort of person who files for pat…

I think this is misleading. In the event that you bring a patent infringement case against Facebook, you still have a license to use react, but you lose the patent rights that would cover you if you came up with something that infringed on a Facebook patent. Meaning that you now have to fight your case in court without any protection. You're safer with this license and the patent grant, than you are without it. The BSD license on it's own, and the MIT license don't give you any sort of patent grant at all.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#45

Post by tomelders »

Ok. With the BSD + patent grant

Do you have a license to use Facebook's patents? Yes.

Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if Facebook brings a patent case against you? Yes.

Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if you bring a patent case against us? No.

If you do not have a patent grant, can you still use React? YES!

If you're going to down vote this, please say why. This is how I interpret the license plus patent grant. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know why.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#46

Post by snarfy »

softinio wrote: post #4

I really have no idea why react is so popular with such a silly license. I agree with this move. There are plenty of OSS projects out there without patent thing attached to its license so no reason to use react.

Honestly, I didn't read the fine print. I've been having fun playing around with it. I assumed the license was OK considering its popularity.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#47

Post by RHSeeger »

geofft wrote: post #13
jorgemf wrote: post #2

Can someone explain how this can affect to projects using react, as in a part of a product of a company or personal projects? Thanks I found this [1]: > FB is not interested in pursuing the more draconian possibilities of the BSD+patents license. If that is true, there is actually very little difference between BSD+patents and the Apache license. As such, relicensing should make little if any pragmatic difference to…

From Mark Thomas's comment on this bug: > My reading of that is if you use this code and Facebook infringes a completely unrelated patent that you own, you can't sue them for infringement without giving up this patent license. That is much broader than the language in the ALv2 which is limited to a single work. So it almost certainly doesn't affect personal projects unless you are the sort of person who files for pat…

> In effect, you may as well be granting Facebook a patent license to literally all your patents for use in any context, in exchange for using React.

I'd say that's overstating the case. You aren't granting them a license to your patents and you can still sue them for infringing (which you would not be able to do if you granted them a license).

Rather, you are promising to look the other way for as long as you are using React. Should you choose to sue,

1. You can say in your case that they never had a right to your patents

2. You can take the time to remove your usage of React prior to filing the court case (so that you never infringe).

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#48

Post by Avshalom »

madeofpalk wrote: post #31
Steeeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering almost every single large tech company is using React React isn't as popular in the real world as it is on HN.

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean 'almost every single large tech company', but React is used by Facebook (of course), Apple, Twitter, Yahoo, Netflix, Amazon, just to name a few.

you have only named a few though; 'almost every single large tech company' requires a particular definition of large tech company or a lot more than a few to be a useful(ly true) statement

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#49

Post by dlandis »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14
softinio wrote: post #4

I really have no idea why react is so popular with such a silly license. I agree with this move. There are plenty of OSS projects out there without patent thing attached to its license so no reason to use react.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

I believe some of the larger companies negotiate special/alternative licenses with them though.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#50

Post by FRex »

tomelders wrote: post #37

INAL - But this seems strange to me. The Apache license has what I see as being the same patent grant, with the same condition that if you make a claim against them, you lose the patent grant. Apache 2.0 > 3. Grant of Patent License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated i…

I'm neither and English isn't my first language (not that legalese is even close to any sane kind of English from last 200 years..) but due to my deep interest in Free and Open software, old games reimplementations, abandonware, reverse engineers and emulation I spent quite a while reading about legal stuff.

The part you said is important sounds like you lose the right to use the patent in the given software if you attempt to sue someone over patents in that software which sounds absolutely sane.

In facebook's case they terminate the patent grant given to you for you trying to sue them for any patent, except a counterclaim if they sue first: https://github.com/facebook/react/commit/b8ba8c83f318b84e429...

And even that is just few years ago, RakNet that Facebook owns via Occulus is still using the old wording: https://github.com/facebookarchive/RakNet/blob/master/PATENT...

So basically the difference boils down to the CAPS part below:

Apache 2.0: we grant you use of these patents, sue anyone over one of the patents we gave you and we take that grant away.

Facebook's BSD: we grant you use of these patents, sue anyone over one of the patents we gave you OR SUE US OVER ANY PATENT AT ALL and we take that grant away.

Another difference is what is covered. Apache is about suing, Facebook's BSD says you can't even 'take a direct financial interest in' any of the stuff they don't want you doing.

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