Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police • Hacker News Board

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#41

Post by jbmorgado » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:10 PM UTC

apeace wrote: post #16

weberc2 wrote: post #4

This article makes a lot of claims about innocent black people being gunned down by police, but is there any actual evidence of this happening disproportionately to white people? Last year I trawled the 2015 Washington Post police shooting dataset and couldn't find any evidence, and a couple months later a black Harvard economist released a paper saying he couldn't find any evidence in the data he looked at. Between…

You didn't research very hard. From the Washington Post[0]: > White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black…

> "White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population."

And yet black people commit more than 50% of all murders/very violent crimes crimes so it makes perfect sense they are more likely stopped by the police than whites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S...

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#42

Post by mindslight » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:14 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #33

narak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact the almost case is more valuable because the survivor in this case was doing absolutely nothing wrong and lived to tell the tale.

"Absolutely nothing wrong" is a little bit overstating it. She wasn't doing anything illegal , sure, but it was a bit reckless to arrange the transfer so that the buyer was expected to go alone, onto someone's driveway, to replace the license plates and drive off with the car without talking to the resident or owner. Imagine if you sold your Magic cards to someone and told them, "oh, they're in my bedroom at 123 Elm…

That is certainly much less "reckless" than pointing a gun at someone. IIRC, the first rule of firearms is to only point them at something you intend to kill.

If the assailant were spending several months in jail for assault and kidnapping, you might have a point. But failing that, let's concentrate on the more egregious breach of peace first.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#43

Post by zzalpha » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:14 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #4

This article makes a lot of claims about innocent black people being gunned down by police, but is there any actual evidence of this happening disproportionately to white people? Last year I trawled the 2015 Washington Post police shooting dataset and couldn't find any evidence, and a couple months later a black Harvard economist released a paper saying he couldn't find any evidence in the data he looked at. Between…

Last year I trolled the 2015 Washington Post police shooting dataset

In case this wasn't a simple typo, just FYI: It's "trawled".

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#44

Post by justforFranz » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:16 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #33

narak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact the almost case is more valuable because the survivor in this case was doing absolutely nothing wrong and lived to tell the tale.

"Absolutely nothing wrong" is a little bit overstating it. She wasn't doing anything illegal , sure, but it was a bit reckless to arrange the transfer so that the buyer was expected to go alone, onto someone's driveway, to replace the license plates and drive off with the car without talking to the resident or owner. Imagine if you sold your Magic cards to someone and told them, "oh, they're in my bedroom at 123 Elm…

She's probably lucky she started putting the license plates on. Imagine if she tried to immediately drive it away. It's very easy to imagine the officer shooting at her with the intent to kill.

That's crazy.

C-R-A-Z-Y.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#45

Post by zzalpha » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:16 PM UTC

loco5niner wrote: post #32

johngalt wrote: post #31

Here's the test. Reverse the situation. Off-duty cop is buying a car and random good neighbor black person sees all the same "suspicious behaviors" and begins an armed confrontation with the person they believe to be stealing a car. Suddenly pointing a gun at a "suspicious person" is no longer "lawful and proper" behavior. At a minimum, the civilian goes to jail for being reckless.

Sorry, but that is not a good comparison. I would assume that off-duty cops (rightly) have more authority when it comes to these types of situations.

I would assume that off-duty cops (rightly) have more authority when it comes to these types of situations.

And yet, when they make a mistake, they aren't held to a higher standard, despite we, as citizens, granting that authority to them.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#46

Post by weberc2 » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:18 PM UTC

3JPLW wrote: post #36

weberc2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You didn't research very hard. From the Washington Post: Actually, that very quote was what inspired my research. I wanted to know if the quote was misleading in favor of one narrative, so I filtered out cases where the suspect was armed and otherwise viably threatening. Here's the link to the harvard study: http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399 > It is a fact: black people are shot and killed more often by police than…

Then in that case, I suppose it all depends on who is doing the justification. Nearly every police shooting in America is "justified" — be it by a police review board, a prosecutor, a grand jury, or a trial jury.

I agree, and unfortunately I don't have a good idea about how to audit the entire justice system. My gut says it's unlikely that an entire diverse industry is prejudiced against one particular racial group, and that thousands of laypeople are in on it. Hopefully we can get better data if it doesn't already exist.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#47

Post by mindslight » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:19 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #4

This article makes a lot of claims about innocent black people being gunned down by police, but is there any actual evidence of this happening disproportionately to white people? Last year I trawled the 2015 Washington Post police shooting dataset and couldn't find any evidence, and a couple months later a black Harvard economist released a paper saying he couldn't find any evidence in the data he looked at. Between…

Does it particularly matter? Even if the majority of the panic is due to the media fanning the flames of racism for profit (and I think it is), it still effects the victim's state of mind.

It doesn't matter if the victim's narrative was that she was likely to get shot because she is black, but yet the reality is that cops are equal opportunity murderers. Either way, the victim is ultimately panicked because they're being assaulted with a deadly weapon.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#48

Post by soneil » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

sturgeongeneral wrote: post #28

op00to wrote: post #5

How is property worth pointing a gun at someone over? It's a car. Cars can be replaced.

It may be just a car to you, but I have a valuable sports car, and if I caught someone attempting to steal it I wouldn't hesitate to point a gun. Not for a moment. Would the intent be to kill? Of course not. It'd be to deter. Edit for the downvotes: it's not just a car to me, and it's not just about the monetary value. It has sentimental value and I wouldn't be able to replace it easily. I don't see what's so controv…

I'd guess the downvotes are the simple implication that your car is worth a human life.

deter? The very first thing I was taught with a gun, was not to point it at anything you didn't intend to shoot. Any time you introduce a lethal instrument to a dispute you've put a lethal conclusion on the table.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#49

Post by LyndsySimon » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #40

SilasX wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Absolutely nothing wrong" is a little bit overstating it. She wasn't doing anything illegal , sure, but it was a bit reckless to arrange the transfer so that the buyer was expected to go alone, onto someone's driveway, to replace the license plates and drive off with the car without talking to the resident or owner. Imagine if you sold your Magic cards to someone and told them, "oh, they're in my bedroom at 123 Elm…

She wasn't doing anything illegal, sure, but it was a bit reckless Only in a world where random folks from the neighbourhood might come out and point a gun at you instead of simply asking a few logical questions and looking at proffered supporting documentation. But it's a bit much to act outraged that anyone would misinterpret her actions. Who's outraged at her actions being misinterpreted? The outrage is at the fac…

> Only in a world where random folks from the neighbourhood might come out and point a gun at you instead of simply asking a few logical questions and looking at proffered supporting documentation.

Not random folks - a family member.

For what it's worth, I likely would have also come out and challenged someone who behaved the same way she did. I would likely have done so with a rifle in my hands and having already called the police. What I would absolutely not have done was point said weapon at her - that's called "assault".

The issue isn't that she was challenged, or even that the guy was armed. The issue is that the guy though that it was appropriate to point a firearm at her, which both constitutes a threat of deadly force and greatly increases the chance of an accidental shooting. Then, after it was all over with, the person that assaulted her was not charged with a crime.

The bottom line here is that police officers are allowed to use threats of deadly force in situations where it is wholly inappropriate, are trained to do so, and are protected by their departments (at their victims' expense no less) in the exceptional case where they are actually charged with a crime.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#50

Post by weberc2 » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 11:23 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #45

loco5niner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but that is not a good comparison. I would assume that off-duty cops (rightly) have more authority when it comes to these types of situations.

I would assume that off-duty cops (rightly) have more authority when it comes to these types of situations. And yet, when they make a mistake, they aren't held to a higher standard, despite we, as citizens, granting that authority to them.

No. Police are necessarily involved in more risky encounters than laypeople. They have manyfold the opportunities to make a mistake than laypeople. Training offsets some of that risk, but not all of it.