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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#41

Post by EdSharkey »

mc32 wrote: post #12

I have no idea how to solve the poverty issue. I don't think there is a way other than subsidizing a portion of the population. Even in Soviet Russia you had some very dedicated people (say scientists and bureaucrats who made things happen) and you also had very unproductive people who retained jobs they had contempt for. That said, with regard to health wellbeing we need a few things: -Reduce costs (cost per person…

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government.

You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to.

You think it's an accident there's weak consumer protections in the U.S. of A? You think it's just dumb luck that health care has no market forces to control costs? We're all about rapacious crony capitalism here!

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#42

Post by unsigner »

analog31 wrote: post #29
tcbawo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and one thing I've noticed is income stratification has had an impact. It used to be more prevalent for your police officer, postman, waitress, or hairdresser to be able to afford to live in your town. Their kids would go to school with your kids, or you might go to the same church. But a lot more families struggle while others have done very well. I see a huge disparity in in…

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#43

Post by petra »

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

Well, research is showing a huge decline(40%) in empathy between 2000-2010:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocke...

The article mentions few of the possible core reasons: a large decline in face to face time which is being replaced by the likes of facebook, a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly, brutal competition that's deeply seeping into the culture and strong inequality - whose turn to isolate us.

>> What's surprising is that I'm not even depressed,

Sure. But that's just your current luck. Statistically we're seeing an increase in depression, anxiety, etc.

The sad thing, it's like world war I, we're seeing all those trends(and others) and we know where they are heading, but there doesn't seem anything we can do about it, on the societal level.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#44

Post by sidlls »

Banthum wrote: post #36
sidlls wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just far too simplistic to be accurate. Poverty is a complex issue and avoiding it requires substantial luck that those who have managed to do so often don't seem to realize they've benefitted from.

Its actually a quantitative result from the (left wing) Brookings Institute: Of the people who do all 3 of these things, 98% are not in poverty.

That may be. The contentious part is how simple that is. It's simplistic to suggest that it's simple, in other words.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#45

Post by throwaway76543 »

dlp211 wrote: post #34
imaginenore wrote: post #3

As a really poor immigrant to the US who succeeded financially, I can tell you with absolute certainty, poverty in the US (barring mental illness cases or health issues) is the result of poor choices. Most of it stems from society's lack of planning for the future of the young people. Young people are consistently being told lies like "you can be anything you want", forgetting to tell them that most of the fun choice…

The average student loan debt in 2016 was $37,172. And while there are those that do take on significant amounts of debt, they typically are those seeking professional degrees, eg: M.D. or J.D. There are of course those who both take on large amounts of debt AND don't get a professional degree, and those people certainly made a mistake in their lives, but they are not your average graduating college student. Addition…

"The average student loan debt in 2016 was $37,172"

To be clear, the opportunity costs of unearned and non-debt payments generally would be in north of 150k range. Assume 30k/year income 4x years is 120k, plus the 37k debt, plus non-debt spending.

" An Associates will net you about $400M over your lifetime, a Bachelors about $1MM,"

And the same monetary investment in a fund earning 7% interest will be worth more than three times that over the same time frame.

It is not a good financial investment, on average. Some degrees have positive ROI. Many - most - do not.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#46

Post by eutectic »

unsigner wrote: post #42
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

It's both.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#47

Post by [deleted] »

unsigner wrote: post #42
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

[deleted]

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#48

Post by [deleted] »

unsigner wrote: post #42
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

[deleted]

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#49

Post by Bakary »

unsigner wrote: post #42
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

That just moves the chain of causation one link earlier.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#50

Post by rndmize »

haberman wrote: post #30
droopyEyelids wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know... there are such things as facts. In 2014, "Vulnerable Populations" made up 80% of the poor in the USA. That essentially means children and the elderly. On top of that, it's like another 7% of people that are in poverty that are fully employed! http://www.demos.org/blog/10/23/15/2014-vulnerable-populatio...

Nov 7, 2016 "fact": Hillary Clinton has a 98.2% chance of winning the presidency: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/polls-hillary-clinton-wi... There are facts, but it does them no service to overstate what the evidence actually says.

What part of this is a fact? I'd argue this is literally the opposite of a fact - it's a model and a prediction based on it. Those are things that may be based on facts, but that in no way makes the theorized conclusion a fact. https://xkcd.com/605/
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