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Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#41
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the former communist math teaching being much better, I think it is cultural as well. Being an engineer in a former communist country was (is) a ticket to good life, similar lifestyle to a doctor or a lawyer. In the US being an engineer is seen as boring, and something only nerdy un-socialable people do. Also there are more attractive alternatives to pursue for smart people in the US. Basically, it boils d…

On the other hand, a lack of math teachers could be explained because people who have decent math skills can now live off that skill by being an engineer much more easily than before when they would have been math teachers.

So a society with a paucity of math skilled people means less teachers with math skills which perpetuates the cycle?

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article uses 'hacker' to mean 'programmer', not cybercriminal.

That's really confusing. And although I love HN, I find the term "hacker" to refer to any sort of programmer or software developer to be increasingly idealistic (bordering on lame), especially when there are very real and very destructive hackers out here.

I, and I think many here, find the media's insistence that all hackers are cybercriminals far more disturbing. To hack has meant to create long before the popular consensus tried to demonize it. Pretending the only interesting thing you can do with a computer is criminal activity is part of the reason why the US is so far behind in the space.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. T…

Logical thinking skills are the gateway to independent thought. Too much of that and the proles could stage a revolt.

Wouldn't that be true in Russia and East Asia as well?

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#44
post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. T…

The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of immigrants would give the same number.

More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected. And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said was law. So if a teacher said you were learning the multiplication table this week, parents didn't argue it was too much, or encourage you to "do your best." You'd be drilled on those times tables until you wanted to kill someone, but you'd damn well be expected to have them memorized by the end of the week.

The idea that people were driven by good money is a western misinterpretation, or whatever the cultural equivalent of anachronism is. My grandmother used to scold my aunt for marrying an engineer instead of a tin knocker, like my mother did, because tin knockers brought home the real money.

I think those two elements - expectations and parental cooperation - don't get enough credit, by far.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#45
post #33
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well , which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.

> Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it. I think the problem is expecting some "nice" (friendly, etc) way of teaching math, which dilutes their content (like Disney-fying a novel). The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "bett…

> The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "better" teaching methods. They just suck it up and study what's there.

Not entirely. A lot of it is problem solving exercises as opposed to rote solve 20 exactly same problems in row seen in us books. Memorization won't help you solve those exercises. There is also les focus on arithmetic and more on equations much sooner.

If you actually like math, you will prefer Russian exercises, cause they challenge you.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#46
Too much emphasis on education and college in this article. Hacking requires 'thinking outside the box'; often called lateral thinking[0]. Formal education in the subject of hacking is nice, but doesn't allow for the creative mind to fully explore systems. There's a phrase:

   Don't Learn to Hack - Hack to Learn
In terms of earning money from hacking, there are tradeoffs made in both whitehat and blackhat hacking. One noticeable tradeoff in blackhat hacking is having no boss, and penetrating a system on your own terms. Whitehat hacking might pay more and be more respectful and a nice little haven where you can avoid jail, but it's often riddled with a rigid framework for getting into systems and doesn't encourage the lateral thinking I previously mentioned. Instead it's a corporate cubicle job where hacking is often automated and routine.

On the other hand, there is grey hat hacking which many fall into at some stage to strike a balance, and often balance criminality with a respectful whitehat job that pays well.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#47
Russian-American here: in Russia you don't get to choose what to study, mostly. Certainly not in middle or high school -- everyone studies the exact same set of subjects. In college you don't get to choose individual subjects, you choose the profession, and that comes with a set of courses already baked in, some of which you'd never take on your own.

Whether you're good or not at something, that's something you cant discover until you're pretty decent at it (see the Suzuki method), so you get exposure to a pretty broad array of subjects, one of which is informatics. I have no doubt this plays a role in exposing more kids to programming. I do not know whether any of the kids make it to the top percentile of "talent". For me (although this is 20+ years in the past) and the majority of my classmates, high school informatics didn't do anything. I already knew vastly more than the teacher, and had a computer of my own, a really shitty one, but it was a computer. The teacher knew it too, so I was allowed not to come to the class, and got "5"s (Russian version of "A"s) automatically.

One thing that definitely does help is that kids who suck at school are kicked out after 9th (8th back then) grade, and are expected to get vocational education, whereas those headed for college get 2 years of uninterrupted focus on their math and science at a much higher level than the dumb kids could handle. At least that's how it was with me. A group of us have (illegally) hired our math and physics teachers to (get this!) study advanced material on the weekends.

Now that I have a kid of my own, it's hard to even imagine that he would take this kind of concern in his own affairs. He has everything, so he will probably amount to nothing. There's no incentive. It's not "either you get good at something, or you'll clean pig manure for the rest of your life" dichotomy. It's more of a "play computer games all day, and then shake down your parents for cash when you turn 18". Vastly different environment.

I would also like to point out, that top engineers almost invariably end up in the West. Russia has the "oil curse" and the "management curse". The oil curse is because in a country so rich with natural resources the taxation and business environment are geared towards those wildly profitable companies, and doing anything else doesn't make sense. The management curse is that managers in Russia typically demand unconditional respect for authority and think they should be much better compensated than an engineer. Both of those things are something a top hacker will almost certainly have problems with. In the West, you're more likely to be listened to and treated as an equal.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article uses 'hacker' to mean 'programmer', not cybercriminal.

That's really confusing. And although I love HN, I find the term "hacker" to refer to any sort of programmer or software developer to be increasingly idealistic (bordering on lame), especially when there are very real and very destructive hackers out here.

For me too. When I heard term hacking in relation to pprograming, it always meant "unmaintennable mess full of dirty tricks holding together with duck tape". Not positive.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#49
post #6

This article may have a point about poor state of basic computer education in US, but its just blindly guesses the reasons on the topic of why so many hackers are from ex-USSR countries. A pretty good level of CS doesn't help here much - take a look at Europe, for instance. The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes…

Here is my experience with this: I grew up the eldest sibling of a struggling single Mom. We didn't have very much. We had to make every penny count. She spent every spare penny we had one year on our first computer to teach herself to program to get herself a better job so we could have an easier life. I was 8. It was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K. She had to sacrifice a lot to afford that computer. In comparison, I wa…

> A hacker is more like a farmer who doesn't have an unending budget to buy the exact right tool for every little job they need done.

Yes. The definition should be someone who excels at doing more with less. "Hacking" with lots of resources is something else entirely.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article uses 'hacker' to mean 'programmer', not cybercriminal.

That's really confusing. And although I love HN, I find the term "hacker" to refer to any sort of programmer or software developer to be increasingly idealistic (bordering on lame), especially when there are very real and very destructive hackers out here.

This nomenclature didn't start on HN and goes back quite a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_culture
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