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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#41
post #32

Another option is to put non-violent offenders in camps. The deal is if they stay in the camp and follow the rules, they can serve out their sentence there. Run away and they go to the real prisons.

It's not a very effective option because non-violent offenders are a small fraction of those incarcerated. You could send them all home and still be more or less where you started.

Now I'm not american, but "non-violent offenders are a small fraction of those incarcerated" didn't sound right to me.

According to "Table 1.1. Estimated number of felony convictions in state courts, 2006" [0] it seems that only 18% of convictions are because of violent crimes, leading to 82% being non-violent, that doesn't feel like "a small fraction" to me. It's not the latest number, but feels you're trying to give a different view than reality.

- [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Felony_S...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#42
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the US court system not refund travel cost? Over here you can get full refund of travel cost if you are summoned to court(within reason - if you travel first class you will only get price of a normal ticket back).

where is "over here"?

In UK you can claim cost of travel, meals, loss of earnings and childcare:

https://www.gov.uk/going-to-court-victim-witness/expenses-fo...

Where I'm originally from(Poland) it was the same - I was summoned to court, after the trial I went to the clerk, said where I drove from and was paid cash for fuel. Had I taken the train it would have been refunded fully.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#43
post #29

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Let some bright people solve them by going at them with their ingenuity. The fastest way towards progress is fair and honest competition. Government can regulate the market by setting the goals: low violence inside, low costs, low re-offences of released, high security, high educat…

> I think the best answer to these problems we face is competition.

I'm sorry, but that is the worst answer. Perverse incentives and moral hazard problems not withstanding, incarceration as a market, profit from human misery and suffering is absolutely morally repugnant.

> Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov?

You're comparing apples to naked mole rats. Running a website (that does exactly what you tell it) is a wee bit different than caring for violent, mentally disabled, borderline personalities, sexually, mentally abusive and abused, etc. individuals. (I'm including a lot of the guards in this description too)

> Businesses that get high marks automatically get more prisoners, ones that get low marks get none.

> That's a lot worse than gov run facilities, but gov facilities are probably not as good as properly regulated market.

Incarceration, and security in general, is the very definition of a market failure and one of the few things that a government needs to provide in the most liberal, laissez-faire economy

Think about how this will play out in reality, considering that prison guard unions and companies wield a large amount of political capital and no one really cares about the welfare of prisoners, if they're being mistreated/abused, etc. Companies can cook their books and no one will care.

We also live in the era where speech=money. Prison corporations spend large amounts of money lobbying. And they lobby for the sickest things possible: increases in sentences, increases in mandatory minimums, fighting against medical marijuana legalization just so they can imprison and profit off of "scary, criminal mastermind potheads"

Our economics is so backwards that we include spending on prisons in our GDP. Growth in the prison sector should not be added as growth in the overall economy

The market solution will not magically erase the culture of the prison economy or change its major players

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#45
post #29

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Let some bright people solve them by going at them with their ingenuity. The fastest way towards progress is fair and honest competition. Government can regulate the market by setting the goals: low violence inside, low costs, low re-offences of released, high security, high educat…

Or just ship em off to Norway!

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/this-norwegian-prison...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#46
post #38
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Let some bright people solve them by going at them with their ingenuity. The fastest way towards progress is fair and honest competition. Government can regulate the market by setting the goals: low violence inside, low costs, low re-offences of released, high security, high educat…

Oops, you're not supposed to say "market" here. Even if you qualify it with terms like "regulation", people assume you're an extremist libertarian out to ruin the country.

You are indeed not supposed to say 'penal system' and 'market' in the same sentence. That's kind of amoral and ends up costing everyone - that is what all for-profit prisons successfully show.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#47

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

Correction: contractors are fleecing tax payers.

Correction : Union.

The California Correctional Peace Officers Association is very powerful in state and local elections and through association with other providers who are also union pretty much have the state on the ropes.

Contractors might be part of the problem but they only are as much as CCPOA allows for. As in, you play by their rules or you don't get to play.

Same reason we spend so much on education and don't see improvement. Nothing is about the prisoner or the student, it is all about political control

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the US court system not refund travel cost? Over here you can get full refund of travel cost if you are summoned to court(within reason - if you travel first class you will only get price of a normal ticket back).

> Does the US court system not refund travel cost? I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing out loud for that one. No, they do not refund any cost you incur for going to court. Luckily, I wasn't accused of any drug crimes or they may have seized my car and kept it under then-existing asset forfeiture (legal theft) laws

if you were wrongly convicted of a crime, would the costs of your defense be somehow be re-imbursed or compensated?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#49

Remember when "university" meant "for anyone"? Why should Harvard tuition fees cost anywhere near what it costs to incarcerate someone 24/7?

both have "facilities", both have lots of administrators, and lease lots of ground/buildings to rent....

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#50
post #32

Another option is to put non-violent offenders in camps. The deal is if they stay in the camp and follow the rules, they can serve out their sentence there. Run away and they go to the real prisons.

It's not a very effective option because non-violent offenders are a small fraction of those incarcerated. You could send them all home and still be more or less where you started.

I think we focus on non-violent offenders too much. There are many "violent" offenders in prison who aren't social deviants, but are a product of their environment. It is a bit sad, but violence is often employed to solve problems especially in low-income neighborhoods.

I think just as much attention needs to be paid to younger first or second offenders who haven't been swallowed up by criminality or prisons, including more wiping of their records as an incentive for good behavior.

If you're labeled a felon, there isn't much incentive to play it straight since the only jobs you can get pay very little. It just makes crime that much more profitable and attractive

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