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Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

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41–50 of 251 posts

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#41
post #23
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those myths are strawman arguments.

Why is Aadhar being made compulsory for rail/air travel or for getting cellular connections? What problem is biometrics in these areas going to solve?

Privacy...

I think the problem here is ultimately that people aren't doing proper threat modeling, and failing to include the government itself as a potential threat.

The most terrifying consulting contract I've ever been offered was a project to entirely replace cash in a country with a "blockchain" currency scheme. In addition to the requirements that both buyer and seller be 100% identified (likely by biometrics), there was also a requirement that every receipt be uploaded to a government run server, allowing exactly what was being bought to be tracked in detail in real-time. And of course, there was the requirement that it be possible to freeze accounts on demand.

I asked the client what country the project was ultimately going to be for, and they didn't really want to tell me (citing NDA's and what not). But I did get them to finally admit it wasn't a democracy, it was a dictatorship.

Pretty obvious that dictatorship wanted even more control over their citizens. Needless to say, I turned the contract down as being involved would be incredibly unethical.

But how much more ethical is it really to do the same type of project in a country that's supposed to be a democracy? I'm not so sure there's a clear difference, given how quickly privacy protections can be removed. Look at how census data was used to round up the Japanese in the USA during WWII for instance.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#42

I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertis…

Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her.

The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#43
post #42

I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertis…

Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her. The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.

You mean the Cincinnati riots of 2001 I can clearly see why USA should not have voter lists /s

The riots happened in 2002 and NOT 2001 (at least get the year right), and unless you are arguing abolishing voter lists, or have a specific argument that involves Aadhar. I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to this discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#44
post #31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be projecting my views onto other HN readers' here, but I don't know that you can garner that much support with this audience for the idea that people shouldn't be able to buy cell service anonymously.

You would be reinforcing GP's point that Indians may have different priorities than say, the HN crowd or Mozilla.

Good point, thanks.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#45

I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertis…

Propaganda? Your 30 minute old account sounds like propaganda too.

We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures.

Aadhar is infrastructure that allows for centralized control of the population. Sometimes that control will be used for good things, like stamping out bribery. But that control can just as easily be used for evil too. And history has shown time and time again that's exactly what happens. I live in Canada, a country filled with refugees of authoritarian regimes. Among my friends I personally know lots of people who have fled those kinds of regimes; I know very few people who have fled countries because of bribery. The latter is annoying and unproductive, but the former is deadly.

That's why you're seeing so much opposition to Aadhar: because it's incredibly dangerous.

edit: better wording

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#46

Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself. > The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need > them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem). > Having a real identification gives very poor individuals t…

I'm not Indian, I'm a white middle class American.

Ok, but since appear to have such a strong opinion on the subject, perhaps you could also address the questions I've asked ?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her. The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.

You mean the Cincinnati riots of 2001 I can clearly see why USA should not have voter lists /s The riots happened in 2002 and NOT 2001 (at least get the year right), and unless you are arguing abolishing voter lists, or have a specific argument that involves Aadhar. I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to this discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_…

Nice deflection! Are you disagreeing that voter lists were used in 2001 to discriminate against muslims? Do we have any laws preventing that from happening with aadhar data?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#48
post #26

All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things. Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets securit…

I would have been fine with Aadhar if - They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication - There would not be an API for commercial services I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.

You do understand that it doesn't only rely on fingerprints, right? There is retinal verification in addition to phone OTP. I had another phone number when I got Aadhar, I changed the city, lost my phone number and now there is no way, I can without physically getting somewhere and submitting the application to update my phone number.

API for commercial services isn't a bad thing per se. A lot of time, it would save time in documentation. Btw, if you have such a privacy concern, Are you not using Facebook, Whatsapp and all other services for free that sell you data, you behaviour to commercial companies.

It's really easy to believe the FUD going on and coming up some original ideas on how to tackle the problem. I hope you are in the second group that would help make our Country a better place to live in.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#49
post #35

The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting. The poor and the rich have had "real" identification that has worked well - the electoral ID for example. Forcing aadhar down everyone's throat with no practical complaint redressal is the issue here. (Good luck getting UIDAI to take responsibility) Aadhar is not progress. Forcing biometric identification that relies on brittle infra is not progress. It…

Thank you for lying so brazenly. Wish could downvote you.

> Even worse, the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish. This would allow companies to have access to some of your most intimate details and create detailed profiles of you, in ways you can’t necessarily see or control.

Liar, the information they get is your name/dob/gender/adress-if-available because that's all the Aadhaar system stores. Which they would already have since you are signing up to be their customer - mobile company for example.

These are intimate details, or are you delusional? Btw, these are also public details in voter id list which are on the internet, and anyone can look at.

> The government can also share user data “in the interest of national security,” a term that remains dangerously undefined

Which country has been able to define the term "National Security"? And a district magistrate has to approve the request. This is true for all data, just that in Aadhaar law it's codified.

> There are little to no protections on how Aadhaar data is used, and certainly no meaningful user consent.

What data? For subsidies govt already knows who you are. If you don't want to share you name/gender/dob with a private compnay don't use Aadhaar to authenticate.

Why force your choice on me, which loves getting an activated mobile connection in 15 min. Or gets access to Mutual funds and Insurance since complaince cost got reduces from 1k Rs to 10 Rs.

> India can solve its problems by its own when it recognizes that beyond money, there are people who are willing to support its technology movement. Competant tech people have time and again come out against the architecture of the solution - the last to suffer for it was Kiran Jonnalgadda (jackerhack on twitter).

Oh, so it's all about self promotion for your consultancy in the guise of privacy. Hope you get more clicks, Kiran Jonnalgadda!

Good job Mozilla. You prove you are really delusional.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#50
post #34
post #6

This is ridiculous fearmongering at a scale unseen before, given the enormous amount of corruption in Indian public distribution schemes, Aadhar has potential to be revolutionary in not only reducing corruption but also in providing poor people in India with assistance that they currently lack. Its easy to be a rich and employed in SF and pontificate about how other countries should run their government. Mozilla is e…

I don't mind giving my biometric data to the US government because I have more legal protection in the US if my data is leaked. India has absolutely no laws to deal with my data being leaked and misused. Also, my biometric data in the US is only used at entry and exit - its not used for every single action I do while in the country. Aadhar tracks literally every action you take - which is scary.

Are you an US citizen? If not, I don't think there are many limits on how your data might be used by the US government or by private actors in the US?
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